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  #1  
Old 10/12/2007, 03:20 PM
ChadOwens ChadOwens is offline
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Are thses bugs eating my zoanthids?

I noticed some really small clear spider like bug things crawling around in my tank. I have been trying to find what ever is eating my zoos for sometime but i'm not to sure what im looking for. What do the nudibrachs look like that eat zoos? Can you see these things easly?

Any tips on what to look for would be great.

I got rid of all my hermit crabs which I think helped.... I'm pretty sure one of them was part of the problem.

I have some green clove polyps that are expanding really well but my zoos are deminishing.....?

Pics of zoo eaters or disciptions would be great so I can narrow this down.

Thanks

Chad
  #2  
Old 10/12/2007, 04:37 PM
gflat65 gflat65 is offline
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Those sound like pods. Some argue that they eat zoas, but I've never seen it (they'll eat dead or dying flesh). Nudi's are difficult to find, but not necssarily difficult to see once you know what you're looking for. Zoa nudi's change colors based on which zoa they are munching on. They take in the zoox from the zoa and exhibit those colors, so they blend in very well. They have finger like frills on their backs that look a lot like zoa skirts (more camouflage). I dont have any pics, but check out zoaid .com. They have a gallery of pests to give you a good idea of what to look for.
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  #3  
Old 10/12/2007, 05:22 PM
ChadOwens ChadOwens is offline
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Thanks for that link... good site. I found the things i was talking about in the pest gallery....amphipods i believe.

Are these the pods you were refering to gflat65? Should i get a little manderinfish in their to eat them?

Chad
  #4  
Old 10/12/2007, 06:19 PM
kellyjn kellyjn is offline
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Get yourself a wrasse. Feed him/her sparingly. He/She will eat the pods when it gets hungry.

Don't get a Mandarin. They will eat all the pods than die of starvation. You can feed the wrasse normal foods when the pod numbers are dwindling.
  #5  
Old 10/12/2007, 07:13 PM
ChadOwens ChadOwens is offline
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okay... After further investigation i found tons of these little bugs all over the place and especially all over my zoos!

A couple of my colonies are completly destroyed as a result of these things... is a wrasse the best way to get rid of these things or are there other methods as well.

My lfs sells pods.... are these some different kinds of pods or what? Why would you want to put these bugs in your tank???


Chad
  #6  
Old 10/12/2007, 07:36 PM
buttons buster buttons buster is offline
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i have some too.
They haven't irritated anything yet.

Some of them are huge around .75 cm.

I could easily remove these.

What are they good for.
Do they cause potential problems?
  #7  
Old 10/13/2007, 02:24 AM
Indermark Indermark is offline
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like stated above, some say that they eat zoanthids. I don't have any evidence of this. I have witnessed them eating dying zoanthids. I have a 75 gallon tank loaded with all types of pods of all shapes and sizes. Some look like ants, shrimp, whitedots with tiny legs etc...I have a zoanthid dominated tank with some SPS and LPS. They serve as a natural food for fish, and some coral could eat them. Mine build tunnels in the sand bed, I can see them digging sand out when they are against the glass or deep enough I can see them moving around if I look from underneath my stand. Its really cool. When I clean my micron sock I will pick some off to throw in my tank and the fish go nuts for them. Its usually the Sixline that gets to them first. the only problems they could cause is eating your zoanthids but I just think they can smell decay when it first starts and they just start eating the dead flesh. That just IMO.

Ryan
  #8  
Old 10/13/2007, 09:24 AM
delsol650 delsol650 is offline
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Never discount anything, just because it hasnt happend to you or someone you know. Thats all I need to say.
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  #9  
Old 10/13/2007, 11:33 AM
gflat65 gflat65 is offline
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Good point. And just because someone said it has happened to them doesn't mean it really did... That's not to say anyone is lying or trying to deceive intentionally, but with so many variables in a marine aquarium, doing an actual root cause analysis and being able to correctly identify non causals to remove from the equation is not something that most people can accurately do (I'm sure no one can for all issues we see). We (myself included) tend to blame what we see rather than digging in and finding why we saw what we saw. Everyone has pods in their tanks and only a small percentage have identified pods eating their zoas. This tells me something else is causing this behavior. If the pods were creatures purposed to eat my zoas, I think it would have happened by now (given 10 years in the hobby). That's not to say that if something changes in my tank that it won't cause a behavioral change resulting in pods munching on things they shouldn't, but that would be a shift from the norm, not the norm. Sharks eat people, too, because thier food sources and currents change. That is a special cause and doesn't mean that if I get in the water in Florida (where the largest number of 'shark attacks' happen) that you're gonna get eaten. Not a smooth analogy, but I hope it makes my point. Just because it happens, that doesn't mean it's the norm. If it happens a small percentage of the time, it is most likely a special cause. What is the cause? Don't know, but I know it isn't the norm.

Just like with the emergence of AEFW's and RB's on SPS after no signs for long periods of time, we need to work to figure out how everything works together (the introduction of them by not QT'ing is one major cause, but some have reported re-emergence after months or a year or more after treating and not seeing them anymore-what caused them to re emerge with no new additons?). Some anedotal evidence seemed to show that after treating for RB's, AEFW's pop out. It happened in my case a few years ago, but that was not the case for the majority of people, so it was discounted. Anecdotal evidence isn't strong in the scientific field, but it can help us as hobbyists to cancel out certain variables to get closer to finding the relationship between the animals and parameters in our addictions. I'd be interested in hearing from people who have seen pods eating thier zoas to get age of tank, how long they've been keeping corals (and zoas), etc. By putting all of this together, we may find a common thread... My occupation requires that I listen to a number of sides to an issue to find the root cause. Every person I speak to has a different reason for the problem (and in my case at work ,it is never anything that could be construed as something they caused-not maliciously, but everyone sees things differently). Therefore, I have to use data to make a determination on the root cause (the SPC approach to solutions may not work as well here since we'd be dealing with qualitative measures in most cases, but the concepts work for everything). I hope that helps explain this post.
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  #10  
Old 10/13/2007, 01:01 PM
delsol650 delsol650 is offline
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I've had several brand new healthy colonies get eaten up with in days of introduction. I observed them myself at night with a red light for hours eating up perfectly healthy zoos. 1cm big. They had a taste for the really expensive/ brightly colored zoos, never touched grandis nor PE's. Search RC, you'll see more have experienced it than you think.

there are hundreds of different species of pods, with all the live rock that we collect from all over the world. Chances are you might get one that's has or will develop a taste for a food source that is readily available in your tank that cant fight back. In the wild there ARE pods that actually hunt fish or other sources.
Chances are if the ampipods in the tank don't have enough to eat, they will revert to the next easy meal available.

Not a biologist, nor a specialist but a avid reefer who's been doing this for over 13+ years. off and on. I am not a NOOB and I know what I saw and what behavior it was. But I do a lot of reading/researching. But fact is , I've seen this happen. Look at it this way centuries ago people thought the world was flat until it was travelled.

I'm not going to go on with this thread to continue to defend the fact of what I saw and know. Just letting people know that this does exist, far few but it does. I just don't want people to be told this doesn't't't exist by most people here, just because this hasn't occurred in their aquaria nor to people that they know. Search RC, search reefkeeping magazine online, search the internet. the data is there.

Got me a mandarin and converted my tank to a wrasse tank. NO more pods eating my zoos. Decimated the population to manageable levels that the pods only eat what they're supposed to and no longer have overgrown the food source , to feel the need to go after a new food source.

I've go a new colony that didn't make the delivery from FL. put it in my tank as experiment to see if pods go after it... NONE and its been a couple of days..

peace.
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Last edited by delsol650; 10/13/2007 at 01:07 PM.
  #11  
Old 10/13/2007, 02:34 PM
gflat65 gflat65 is offline
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I must have missed where someone said this doesn't exist and that you are all crazy and seeing things... Maybe I missed a reply where someone said that you imagined seeing a pod eat a polyp???

I just don't like seeing things hyped to mass hysteria (like how zoas are going to kill you because they are soo toxic if you look at them wrong). What most people will read from this is that pods are bad, so they should be eradicated. Same thing happened with bristle worms in the early days. They provide innumerable benefits in an aquarium, but people were ready to do anything necessary to eradicate them because someone said they found them eating their new clam, etc.

I think that if you read what I wrote, you won't find anything that says this doesn't happen. My question is on the reason this happens. It is not an inevitability that if you have pods, they will eat your zoas. Speaking in absolutes is misinformation (hence the direction of our society at least over the last 6-7 years). Your explanation above that there are hundreds of different species helps break it out to a more specialized problem, rather than saying pods in general (which is where the misinformation is for the average reader). Now, can we identify which pods in particular are the problem pods? That to me would be the next step to classifying this problem and gaining a better understanding.

delsol, I may come across like I'm arguing with you (not my intention), but the point I'm trying to make is we have to be more responsible for the statements we make (especially as experienced hobbiests). Being more specific in the statements we make will help curb the misinformation that plagues this hobby. Someone hears something from someone and then tells five friends who then tell five friends. The 'palytoxin's gonna kill you if you give it a chance' scare is one that really bugs me. Once again, you can't say it won't happen, but no medically documented accounts can be found on palytoxin from the hobby hurting anyone, despite the tens of thousands of people who frag and have fragged zoas over the last ten or twenty years. There may have been a lot of "well it had to be the palytoxin, despite there being millions of other things that could have caused the issue or combined to cause the issue because it's the easies thing to blame" excuses, but no real documention. Should someone be informed that it is a vastly remote possibility, yes, but they should also be informed that very little is known about how much palytoxin is in each zoa and the only known zoas that have been really tested are Palythoa toxica (not something you see in the hobby). Also, that no one has every actually been diagnosed as having palytoxin poisoning. Not that zoas are toxic and will kill you if you touch them. Or that pods are bad and will eat your corals. We have to be careful how much we group and generalize in our statements. There may be some pods that do this, so specify that maybe it is certain species and most likely not all pods. It can't be the goal of all pods to eat zoas, right? If so, we'd all have the problem, right? There are obviously differences in our setups that make conditions right for pods to eat zoas, so we need to figure out what those differences are to help the hobby. Close ended statements like pods are bad, they'll eat your corals is misleading. That may not be what people are writing (explicitly), but I guarantee you that enough people will pull from this that pods are bad and will cause problems in your tank.

I don't think a tank is complete without a wrasse or a mandarin, so maybe that is why I haven't seen issues. delsol-it sounds like that worked for you, too. Is this the only difference between issues and no issues (no other changes to your system)? What kind of pods did you see eating them (description or pics if available)? Anyone else? If so, I'd recommend a separate thread and get others to post their experiences on both sides of the ball. We may see a characteristic of those who have never had issues or corrected the issue with those who have/are experiencing the issue. That would work towards understanding the issue. I have a weird way of doing it (obviously), but I'm trying to spark conversation to work towards an explanation for the problem.
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  #12  
Old 10/13/2007, 04:32 PM
delsol650 delsol650 is offline
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Actually the short answer I had more was towards INDERMARK.
but the whole paragraph was just in-general to the NON believers whom in RC usually crucify that small amount of folks that say this happens. I was just saying that ahead of time before one of those folks come to this thread.

GFLAT
Various species of Large 1cm ampipods, some silver, some striped some with a black stripe. etc...
No changes in tank just took out anthias and other wrasses that I didn't like, 6line, mystery and a Lineatus.

Feeding I also trended back a little so that not that much excess food gets all over the floor uneaten which the nassarius cant get too.
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  #13  
Old 10/13/2007, 11:19 PM
gflat65 gflat65 is offline
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I'll work on starting a thread with some questions so we can centralize some thoughts. There are a lot of threads on it, but if we can pull some of the info into one thread (pipe dream, I know), it'll make it easier. I'll post on another forum, too, for some diversity.
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  #14  
Old 10/13/2007, 11:24 PM
delsol650 delsol650 is offline
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hahahhah... yes 1 thread about it is a good pipe dream.. unless it becomes a sticky...
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  #15  
Old 10/14/2007, 05:31 PM
Hypertek99 Hypertek99 is offline
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I have Amphipods all over my zoas. But i have kepted a good eye on them and no loss in any of my zoos or palys. I do notice they like to stay in the zoos not much on palys. But once you have amphipods in your tank it's almost impossible to get rid of them. They multiply very fast. I have a Mandarin in my 29Gal and it keeps them under control. Check out www.zoaid.com for Zoa names and pests.
 

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