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  #26  
Old 12/18/2007, 04:13 PM
scottras scottras is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by samtheman
No, the birth of billions is what I am talking about. Why do we have to have the absolute maximium amount of humanity that the world can support? Why can't 5 billion alive at once be enough?????
I am against killing, but I do not support unlimited population. If you support unlimited population, then you support unlimited use of natural resources. You can't have it both ways.
Fair enough, but not many developing countries have population control. The best methods I have learnt to control population are education (specifically the females of the house) and making a country prosperous. Developed countries do not have the population expansion of developing countries. All we have to do then is stop the developed countries from consuming so much.

No easy solution.
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  #27  
Old 12/18/2007, 08:13 PM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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No one said it would be easy!
  #28  
Old 12/18/2007, 11:27 PM
steven_dean17 steven_dean17 is offline
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Those are some fantastic claims(no population controll, only dumb women make babies, TANG theory of earths population, the POPE speech) I'm glad that's not the way my leaders rule/lead. These theories should be left in the dark ages where they belong. LOL
I must admit however they made for some good reading.
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  #29  
Old 12/19/2007, 01:05 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
Those are some fantastic claims(no population controll, only dumb women make babies, TANG theory of earths population, the POPE speech) I'm glad that's not the way my leaders rule/lead. These theories should be left in the dark ages where they belong. LOL
I must admit however they made for some good reading.
I'm having a hard time sifting through your sarcasm, and I know sarcasm, but educated women with a life outside the house tend to have fewer children, it's a fact. Not sure what you're saying about the other things, so I'll leave it alone.
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  #30  
Old 12/19/2007, 02:30 AM
steven_dean17 steven_dean17 is offline
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May I please have a link to the study to which you are baseing your fact?
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  #31  
Old 12/19/2007, 06:14 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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While much has been made of record-breaking thermometer readings and “unprecedented” heat waves, the average global temperature has risen by just 1°F in the past hundred years. If this doesn’t seem like much, well, it isn’t and, moreover, it has been unevenly distributed: temperatures rose from 1920-1940, decreased for the next thirty years, increased again until the mid-1990s, and have been nearly flat since 1998.

This is not the result one would expect if human-generated greenhouse gas emissions, which have constantly increased, inevitably caused temperatures to rise.
  #32  
Old 12/19/2007, 08:24 AM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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This is not the result one would expect if human-generated greenhouse gas emissions, which have constantly increased, inevitably caused temperatures to rise.
Actually it's exactly what the models that take in all natural and human forcings predict. We aren't just pumping CO2, methane, and other greenhouse gases into the air. At the same time we're pumping out sulfate aerosols that also cool the planet. The drops and rises in the observed trends are linked to changes in the relative production of sulfates and greenhouse gases.

It's also not true that temperatures leveled off in the 1990's. When the data is normalized and the impact of exceptional years like 1998 is reduced the trend is still an increase.
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  #33  
Old 12/19/2007, 11:57 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
May I please have a link to the study to which you are baseing your fact?
They're easy to find on the internet, but here are a couple things you can look at.

http://www.scienceblog.com/community.../un960224.html

http://www.prb.org/pdf07/07WPDS_Eng.pdf
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  #34  
Old 12/19/2007, 02:26 PM
steven_dean17 steven_dean17 is offline
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http://dieoff.org/page56.htm
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  #35  
Old 12/19/2007, 03:05 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Here is a quote from your link: "How many children a couple gets largely depends upon how many they want, and how many they want depends importantly upon how many they think they can support."

Look at the birthrates of developed vs undeveloped nations, it's night and day. Educated women work and want fewer children, even though they could afford them, which doesn't mesh well with the above quote. Just about every major study concludes that education (and I should include economic level) reduces birthrate. Additionally, that book focuses on countries receiving foreign aid and the results of all foreign aid (food, housing, etc), it doesn't focus on education as far as I can tell, and neither you or I can deduce much of anything from that link.
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  #36  
Old 12/19/2007, 04:57 PM
steven_dean17 steven_dean17 is offline
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That is not true in all cases, most if not all of these studies are based on poor underdeveloped countries that in most case have a culture that promotes child birth be it religious or governmental influence. These studies more often then do not include developed countries like the US and UK. I've seen one study that concludes women of hispanic birth will come to the US to have children. Is this caused by a lack of education? It seems to me that they were smart enough to know they would be better able to care for the children if the crossed the border. These arguments may have ment more back in the day, but now all the worlds populations are getting better educations across the board, so if women are staying dumb, it's not from a lack of education. I refuse to blame dumb women for the demise of the earth, If the men in these womens lives were a little less greedy maybe their women folk would be better prepared to castrate them at birth. Now that's how you controll a population.
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  #37  
Old 12/19/2007, 07:07 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
That is not true in all cases, most if not all of these studies are based on poor underdeveloped countries that in most case have a culture that promotes child birth be it religious or governmental influence. These studies more often then do not include developed countries like the US and UK.
No they're not left out of the studies, the entire point is to compare birth rates in developed (educated) vs undeveloped (uneducated) nations.
Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
I've seen one study that concludes women of hispanic birth will come to the US to have children. Is this caused by a lack of education? It seems to me that they were smart enough to know they would be better able to care for the children if the crossed the border.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. Anyway, you don't need to be educated to know the US offers more opportunity than Mexico (no offense to Mexicans).
Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
These arguments may have ment more back in the day, but now all the worlds populations are getting better educations across the board, so if women are staying dumb, it's not from a lack of education. I refuse to blame dumb women for the demise of the earth, If the men in these womens lives were a little less greedy maybe their women folk would be better prepared to castrate them at birth. Now that's how you controll a population.
What? Wait...what? If it were true that everyone in the world was educated, then you would be educated, and that is clearly not the case.
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  #38  
Old 12/19/2007, 07:15 PM
chrissreef chrissreef is offline
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"If the men in these womens lives were a little less greedy "

greedy? like irresponsible 1 night stands and machismo pressure? there's so many mexicans at my work and so much pressure (pride, their own parents peer pressure) to have a "male" or 4-6 children that it appauls me. Then my wife works at a hospital and I get to hear about how poor/uneducated people (many races) walk in, get treated and then walk out without ever paying a bill... but that's another issue.

I think education has some influence (m &&& f)... but it's not the end all. I'd really like to see government provided birth control (we pay around $37/month and know many girls in the 15-26 range that don't use any because it's too $$ every month or don't want to ask their parents). Then they get pressured with the guys not thinking beyond 5 minutes from now let alone the ramifications of irresponsibility etc.

anyway... it's an endless subject. Co2 emissions are SOME of the problem. I'm just as concerned about this as I am the mercury in the oceans, trash I see in parks, runnoff into streams, the O2 deadzone in the caribbean etc. etc.

if humans aren't influencing CO2 enough... they certainly are influencing other things the environment can't cope with.
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Last edited by chrissreef; 12/19/2007 at 07:22 PM.
  #39  
Old 12/19/2007, 09:16 PM
steven_dean17 steven_dean17 is offline
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So now I'm not educated.....ok you win the prize for making an insult to win the debate. Good luck in the future with your higher form of thinking.
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  #40  
Old 12/19/2007, 09:46 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by steven_dean17
So now I'm not educated.....ok you win the prize for making an insult to win the debate. Good luck in the future with your higher form of thinking.
Insult FTW! Sorry, didn't mean to say you were uneducated, just ignorant towards some issues. Don't take it personal, it's par for the course for me to be a little abrasive. Sometimes it makes people angry enough to read more and prove me wrong.
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  #41  
Old 12/19/2007, 10:16 PM
chrissreef chrissreef is offline
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"just ignorant towards some issues"

heh... maybe, maybe not. All of us choose our battles and our sides based on different facts, experiences, opinions etc. Whether either party is right or wrong, I think it's important to find a means to an end where everyone is happy. Pick religion for an example... in some ways I'm amazed we haven't blown each other up already over the "truth" =P

Oh, it's also wise to keep in mind that there are usually very smart people on both sides of the fence... and to keep respect and personal opinions to ones self so that your side is listened to and treated with respect. Emotion should always be kept out first and foremost.
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Last edited by chrissreef; 12/19/2007 at 10:28 PM.
  #42  
Old 12/21/2007, 10:17 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrissreef
Oh, it's also wise to keep in mind that there are usually very smart people on both sides of the fence... and to keep respect and personal opinions to ones self so that your side is listened to and treated with respect. Emotion should always be kept out first and foremost.
I hear ya, I do, and I don't want to hurt any feelings. But, I can't keep my emotions out of it, and neither should you. Lack of emotion breeds apathy, and we can't afford any more apathy. Get some passion, fight for something. Don't be a total jerk, and definitely don't hurt people, but emotion is the most powerful tool we have for any cause.
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  #43  
Old 12/22/2007, 07:39 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
I hear ya, I do, and I don't want to hurt any feelings. But, I can't keep my emotions out of it, and neither should you. Lack of emotion breeds apathy, and we can't afford any more apathy. Get some passion, fight for something. Don't be a total jerk, and definitely don't hurt people, but emotion is the most powerful tool we have for any cause.
And what nobel activity are you personally engaged in with your emotional purpose?
  #44  
Old 12/22/2007, 11:04 PM
chrissreef chrissreef is offline
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/sigh

I was just trying to say that if one brings too much emotion into something... the person one is trying to communicate with will stop listening and have a high potential to go into a situation where they become defensive... which is opposite the intended purpose. discussion is also different than persuasion or debate. someone can be passionate/emotional about a particular subject but when speaking to someone of the opposite stance, its use should be used sparingly. (and yes i'm very passionate about the environment - but I refuse to be radical and irrational toward non-believers)

ex: father gets emotional about his daughter staying out late rather than speak to her respectfully and calmly.

ex2: christian is in a muslim church speaking about christianity... not a good time to use emotion

ex3: accused murder victim becomes emotional/irate about their innocence in front of a jury vs speaking non-emotionally and calmly

point - be respectful of everyone's opinion (factual or not) because your own opinion is just that... an opinion.

anyway, this topic has sadly gone down a bad tangent =(
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  #45  
Old 12/24/2007, 01:57 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by samtheman
And what nobel activity are you personally engaged in with your emotional purpose?
Sift through previous posts if you want. I've gone down that road too many times already.
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  #46  
Old 12/24/2007, 02:05 AM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrissreef
point - be respectful of everyone's opinion (factual or not) because your own opinion is just that... an opinion.
You do understand the difference between fact and opinion, right?

I'm tired of people spouting half truths and lies, and I'm way past caring if people think I'm being "nice". I've tried being nice, and nothing changes. I'll give the facts as I know them, and if the other person is open to it, fine. If not, it doesn't matter how I say it because they won't listen no matter how I deliver the message, IME.
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  #47  
Old 12/24/2007, 03:24 AM
chrissreef chrissreef is offline
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exactly... you can't force anyone to do anything. Overweight people hear about their "problem" through facts every day but in the end, nothing will change unless they want to change or do what it takes. Until then, they'll keep ballooning (just like pollution if there isn't an export means.) . Some think skinny is a marketing problem and not obesity, some won't even change after doctor recommendation which is causing all of our health insurances to rise etc. etc. Hell, I know plenty of adults with $0.00 in savings because the government always provides an "out" thus breeding irresponsibility (medicare/medicaid sp? social security, etc.) Americans are really good at pushing things onto future generations (that are fewer in number)

the only thing you can do is present facts (from occasionally a biased perspective and hope they don't have counter facts). if presented wrong, people will just tune the facts out (like commercials haha... my "opinion" is emotion is a bad way to communicate to strangers).

As you may have noticed... the "responsible reefkeeping" forum isn't frequented much, why do you think that is? My guess is people want to tune the facts out of us taking animals from natural habitats to suit their personal agendas. people just tune out bad news in general because it doesn't make them feel good and it requires some responsibility on their part =( "our hobby is so small compared to other things the reefs must bear so we don't really have to worry about how much we take" ORRR "oh, when the bangaii's are extinct, someone will start tank raising them so no worries"... I hear this ALL THE FING time and I work at a lfs =( I even tell customers about them being red listed and they say "oh, wow that sucks... well I'd still like some so I'll take 3". I just want to beat the crap out of them! what more do I need to do after I present facts of possible extinction? burn the forest around their house down or hide their child for an hour in the bathroom before they "get it"?

my fiancee's cosmo recently listed recycling rates in various cities... it's not too hot in tx =(
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  #48  
Old 12/26/2007, 08:56 PM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by HippieSmell
Sift through previous posts if you want. I've gone down that road too many times already.
Nice dodge!
  #49  
Old 12/26/2007, 10:56 PM
HippieSmell HippieSmell is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by samtheman
Nice dodge!
It is a dodge, as I know what it leads to and it's never good. Letting you and countless others into my personal life is about as appealing to me as poking my eye with sharp stick, and just about as productive.
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  #50  
Old 12/31/2007, 08:57 AM
samtheman samtheman is offline
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Then why use your personal life as a model for our behavior, with all the "emotional" verbage?
 

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