Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > General Interest Forums > New to the Hobby

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01/18/2007, 07:03 PM
steveUNO steveUNO is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 24
Live Sand or Bare Bottom

I'm about to start my first reef tank soon and so I've been visiting the LFS' asking alot of questions about the actual set up. I've been advised by a few to definitely use 1 to 2 lbs of live sand per gallon, while others tell me that a bare bottom is the way to go. If I remember correctly, I was told that if I do go with the live sand, siphoning/ cleaning it is gonna be a hassle and that I would have to replace it every so often. Is this true? I may have misunderstood what the person said at the LFS. He also told me that it would also kill the bottom part of the live rock that sat in the sand. I'm sure there are pros and cons to live sand so I'm hoping all you experts can shed some light on this subject. Thanks.
  #2  
Old 01/18/2007, 07:11 PM
kookerson kookerson is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silver Stinks, Nevada
Posts: 607
I think most people prefer to have a sandbed for a multitude of reasons.........its more natural, it helps along with the natural filtration and houses tons of beneficial organisms, . With barebottom, you very little maintenance.....but you get no natural filtration or natural food for your fish. As far as maintenance goes for having a sandbed, It really doesnt seem like that big of a deal......especially if you have a decent clean-up crew.......HTH! : )
  #3  
Old 01/18/2007, 08:24 PM
xenon xenon is offline
FOWLR
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Aylmer, Quebec
Posts: 1,505
Send a message via ICQ to xenon
BB FTW!
__________________
90g AGA with 120lb of cooked Hatian LR, 40g sump, Mag9.5 pump, Tek Light 4x54w T5, Euro-Reef RS135, Vortech Power Head, SpectraPure Maxcap RO/DI
  #4  
Old 01/18/2007, 08:28 PM
xinumaster xinumaster is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: sj ca
Posts: 1,898
Send a message via Yahoo to xinumaster
The new tank 375g I will be setting up will be BB with remote DSB.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=988531
__________________
-perry/xinumaster
  #5  
Old 01/18/2007, 08:29 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
I have had them all including crushed coral, shallow sand, bare bottom and deep sand bed and much prefer the DSB. BB looks to sterile and unnatural, shallow sand needs maintenance, crushed coral traps detritus and requires even more work and DSB takes care of itself with a proper cleaning crew.
  #6  
Old 01/18/2007, 09:09 PM
bertoni bertoni is offline
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Foster City, CA, USA
Posts: 35,743
[welcome]

This thread might help:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=803688
__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
  #7  
Old 01/19/2007, 09:22 AM
steveUNO steveUNO is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 24
Clean up Crew

First off, THANKS for all the helpful replies and articles!

If I do decide to go with a DSB, what type of clean up crew would you recommend to keep it clean. BTW, I will be setting up an 80g, if that makes any difference.
  #8  
Old 01/19/2007, 10:31 AM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
Nassarius snails, cerith snails, turbo snails, astrea snails, a few scarlet hermits and a fighting conch work well for me.
  #9  
Old 01/19/2007, 03:47 PM
dippin61 dippin61 is offline
Will work for coral
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,890
BB .. i would never ever ever ever ever ever go back to sand.

ever.
__________________
Reefers Law: It can take about 48 hours to brown, and 48 weeks to color back up!
  #10  
Old 01/19/2007, 05:07 PM
Joe Cool Joe Cool is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally posted by dippin61
BB .. i would never ever ever ever ever ever go back to sand.

ever.
+1
  #11  
Old 01/19/2007, 05:23 PM
EdKruzel EdKruzel is offline
Insane Reefer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Winchester, Va.
Posts: 5,587
I ran BB in the late 70's and early 80's and although this will hurt many feelings, those that run a BB today don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice, however I have to agree with AZ on this one; I would quit the hobby before running a BB tank again.

With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.
__________________
When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut!
  #12  
Old 01/20/2007, 02:07 PM
Dr.FuManchu Dr.FuManchu is offline
Moved On
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally posted by EdKruzel
I ran BB in the late 70's and early 80's and although this will hurt many feelings, those that run a BB today don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice, however I have to agree with AZ on this one; I would quit the hobby before running a BB tank again.

With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.
I think most people running bare bottom these days have a pretty good grasp of "bilogical make-up and the compatibility required" whatever that means. Many beautiful tanks with incredible corals and coral growth on this forum a run barebottom with no issues. As long as you are willing to keep up the extra work and maintanence involved with a DSB then yes it can function properly, even for many years. But, do not decieve yourself into thinking that it is a set it and forget it thing, it requires EXTRA organisms, livestock, and maintenance and even then it may crash your tank.
  #13  
Old 01/20/2007, 02:21 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
Bogus Information Expert
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 8,848
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.FuManchu
As long as you are willing to keep up the extra work and maintanence involved with a DSB then yes it can function properly, even for many years. But, do not decieve yourself into thinking that it is a set it and forget it thing, it requires EXTRA organisms, livestock, and maintenance and even then it may crash your tank.
That can be many, many years Steve. There is an unproven rumor that in X amount of years a DSB releases unknow toxin into the tank water and kills off the entire tank. If such where true there would be reports all over this board. If there are I certainly missed them somehow. There are ZERO documented studies showing that these crashes occur and only pure speculation on the cause of the disaster if it did occur.

By far the easiest method for a beginner is to use a DSB. Use good quality LS and there is no need for "extras". It comes with the needed organisms and it just takes a little time to begin working. You'll be rewarded with a stable, easy to maintain tank.
__________________
"Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation"

Tom
  #14  
Old 01/20/2007, 06:18 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
What "extra work and maintenance" are you referring to? I guess I have been doing things wrong in my sucessful 10G with a 5" DSB because I don't do an extra work or maintenance. Quite the contrary in fact, My old BB had to be vacuumed constantly, my shallow sand bed had to be vacuumed and groomed and the old crushed coral produced nitrates in the 400 range if left alone. My DSB just keeps on chugging away with no problems.
  #15  
Old 01/20/2007, 07:16 PM
jpitch jpitch is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Middle Island, NY
Posts: 106
This is what I don't understand. People keep saying they need to keep vacuuming a BB and don't have to with a DSB. That's implying that the detrius is only present in a BB. There is just as much maintenance with both setups. However, you need to keep differrent things in mind.

Edkruzel, as a RC Mod I'd expect a little more neutrality before posting that those with BB tanks have "less understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed". They just have differrent priorities and preferrences than you do, I suppose.

Waterkeeper, there was an interesting article posted in last month's or the month before in the magazine Aquarium Fish attempting to tackle the DSB vs BB issue. And they were very slanted to the BB philosophy. There argument suggested that the risks outweighed the rewards on a DSB.

After reading my post you'd think I ran a BB in my tank. To the contrary, I have a 5" DSB in my display. I have no complaints at the moment but I monitor the situation more carefully after learning of this debate.
  #16  
Old 01/20/2007, 07:28 PM
sstimac sstimac is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Marquette, Michigan
Posts: 10
i would go with live sand.
  #17  
Old 01/20/2007, 10:19 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
Again what maintenance is required with a DSB? I do nothing.
  #18  
Old 01/20/2007, 11:23 PM
EdKruzel EdKruzel is offline
Insane Reefer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Winchester, Va.
Posts: 5,587
Jpitch,
If you're going to quote me please get it right.

Quote:
Originally posted by EdKruzel
don't have a proper understanding of the biological make-up and the compatibility required to succeed.
This doesn't make it right or wrong and it comes down to personal choice,
With the proper planning a DSB not only looks more natural, but is so beneficial.
There are many correct ways to grow livestock, some are better than others and some hobbyists are more successful or have a better understanding of one method over another.
As I stated personal choice, but I do stand by proper understanding.

For a DSB you must feed properly and not keep animals that will decimate the fauna or move copious amounts of sand (sand sifters).
Many I speak with or have read about that complain about their DSB list items such as replacement water with high TDS's or fish and inverts that feed from and dig through the sand.
If you can't abide by the rules to make it work or have the proper understanding of what it takes, than a BB or thin layer is best.
If you're willing to run as necessary, than the benefits are huge.
__________________
When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut!
  #19  
Old 01/21/2007, 02:06 AM
jpitch jpitch is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Middle Island, NY
Posts: 106
I really don't want to take this thread away from it's original topic but I did a cut and paste right from your own thread, Ed. You're accusing people that have been in this hobby for DECADES. To accuse those that choose BB because of a lack of understanding is like a politician saying women don't belong in a particular career field. It's suicide. I hope fellow mods will take you aside and maybe explain it in a way I perhaps am not that will allow you see what you are really saying. I understand you are not saying either is right or wrong but to take this topic and attack a particular group is not in the best interest of this topic. Sorry to those that have followed this thread and got sidetracked by my babble.
  #20  
Old 01/21/2007, 09:40 AM
Brent Burton Brent Burton is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Anderson, INDIANA
Posts: 26
I run both. On my reef I have 4" dsb. its very easy to maintain, all i do is give it a good stir once in a while and let the inverts have at it. I have cucumbers, mini brittles, sand sifting crabs, hermits, horseshoe crabs, all sorts of snails, sifter star ect...
On my community tank i have bb. Even easier to maintain. I feel its just a personal preference thing. both have benefits and disadvantages.
__________________
crazyreefer
  #21  
Old 01/21/2007, 11:20 AM
EdKruzel EdKruzel is offline
Insane Reefer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Winchester, Va.
Posts: 5,587
jpitch,
You didn't cut and paste or it would have been the exact words I used, at n o time did I type "Less Understanding".
I'm not accusing anyone of anything when it comes to their tank keeping methods.
Decades in anything doesn't make you an expert; some people research to death before adding that first drop of water and have more knowledge than the guy that just drops in fish and kills them year after year.
AGAIN, there are many correct ways to keep livestock and if it is sand predators you wish then a BB is all you can keep long term.

Brent,
By stirring up your DSB and keeping the listed animals you have there will be problems down the road; maybe not disastrous problems, but at the very least you're not getting the added benefits you can with a proper working (undisturbed) DSB.
__________________
When you find yourself in "Deep Water" it's best to keep your mouth shut!
  #22  
Old 01/22/2007, 01:17 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
Bogus Information Expert
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 8,848


Nothing gets things stirred up like a good DSB vs. BB thread. I myself used barebottom FO tanks for years. Back in those days LR and DSB's were unknown to the majority of reefers. Nitrate was always a problem so as many hobbyists discovered LR and the DSB approach there was major rejoicing.

A BB can work pretty well if you have enough LR. The problem is LR has a finite filtering ability and the pore structure clogs with bacteria and algae over time. Eventually, the rock becomes covered with algae. To see how this is overcome just do a search on "cooking" LR. There are legions out there who must nearly destroy the LR to get it working properly again and the process requires several months to accomplish. Even then the rock is never the same and must be "cooked" again in fairly short order.

Now a DSB also accumulates material that reduces its effectiveness but it provides much longer filtering ability than LR alone. When algae begins to form on the bed one just removes the top portion, say 1/4 of an inch or so, and replaces it with fresh LS. Usually the bed will be fine after the replacement as it provides new biota to the bed.

I'm not saying one shouldn't go BB but I think the DBS is better for the novice as it requires very little care and one need not take down their tank every year or two.
__________________
"Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation"

Tom

Last edited by WaterKeeper; 01/22/2007 at 01:32 PM.
  #23  
Old 01/22/2007, 01:24 PM
GSMguy GSMguy is offline
clownfish fan
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wooster Ohio /Clayton New York
Posts: 9,133
Send a message via AIM to GSMguy
its simple to me sps tanks with huge skimmers go bare bottom mixed reef go sand
that said the nicest LPS tanks are sometimes bare bottom what do u want to keep
  #24  
Old 01/22/2007, 01:39 PM
MiddletonMark MiddletonMark is offline
troublemaker
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 13,532
How about this question ....

What do you plan to keep?
If you want a jawfish, there is only one answer.
Same for other livestock.

While many things can be kept in both - let's not get the cart ahead of the horse .... what do you want to keep?
__________________
read a lot, think for yourself
  #25  
Old 01/22/2007, 10:10 PM
Saddler Saddler is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 205
In the past I had heard that you need 6" for a jawfish, can you get away with 4"? Also, will 6" create dead spots at the bottom of the sand?
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2009