Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > General Interest Forums > Do It Yourself

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #26  
Old 01/08/2008, 10:25 AM
wife no likey wife no likey is offline
Just a member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 557
This is pretty much the exact setup that I run, and there are a few points worth noting.

First of all, when running with a tank and having it integrated into your drinking water, you're going to get massive creep. I GUARANTEE this.

I have putzed w/ every kind of shutoff valve available. I have tried five different kinds attempting to get the tank to drain significantly before RO production starts. No matter what, the delta will drop enough to have the flow start after a couple of cups is dispensed.

So after going that route, I ended up going w/ a creep water dump strategy. I sort of stole the idea off Donw.

I have the pressure switch for my booster pump engage a TDR that controls a three way solenoid. The waste and product tee at the one output of it. The solenoid then dumps all the membrane output (permeate and brine) down the drain for the first minute or so. After that, it fills the tank again.

Prior to adding in the solenoid, water coming out of my tank was running at a TDS of about 25. Now it is 1. I'm running triple membranes and have about 250 coming in. I additionally run a permeate pump to counteract the tank pressure and I have my booster running at about 75psi.


Pete
  #27  
Old 01/08/2008, 10:31 AM
wife no likey wife no likey is offline
Just a member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally posted by AZDesertRat
My pressure tank climbs to between 14 and 25 after about two weeks so I make it a point to completely drain the pressure tank at least that often by making 25 gallons of RO/DI water in a single day to allow the tank to fill with freash low TDS water.

Funny that we got pretty much the exact same numbers.

Only took my 3gallon tank about 2 days to get that high though.
  #28  
Old 01/08/2008, 10:46 AM
hllywd hllywd is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,241
Send a message via ICQ to hllywd
Float valve in the sump is a bad idea. They are prone to salt creep and as such and can stick in the open position fairly easily. Should that happen the sump will overflow and possibly lower your SG enough to kill the tank if not caught quickly.

I've seen a simple ATO at Phishy Business that you plug a pump into, it works on air pressure like a washing machine level control and shouldn't be affected by salt creep. The ATO can be set on a timer so it only runs a couple times a day limiting the amount of water allowed in at any one time. The cost is about $60 ( http://phishybusiness.com/store/prod...roducts_id=207 ). They also have one with a solenoid valve and JG fittings to run 1/4" polyethylene tubing directly from the RO unit to the valve then to the sump, no holding reservoir required. You can set it on a timer too to accomplish the same thing. About $100 for this one ( not on the website ).

Personally either way I'd install a valve at the output to limit how quickly the makeup water can flow from the ATO into the sump.

I've yet to get either one since I don't have a convenient place for a holding tank and no way to run tubing from my RO's current location to the tank. I am however leaning toward a trash can in our furnace room with a small power head (I already have a Mini-Jet 404 set up with a JG fitting) controlled by the $60 ATO and a timer and feeding a kalk reactor.

I'm not sure in this case if a pump that small will do the trick but a booster pump seems like overkill for an ATO. Since a lot of your equipment has to be in a crawl space I'd think the solenoid version would simplify things for you.

Tim
__________________
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations ?


Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you learn to speak English.
  #29  
Old 01/08/2008, 11:27 AM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
Quote:
Originally posted by jmc74
listen; I work installing/servicing RO systems, and the TSD creep is the biggest bunch of CRAP I ever heard, is like the Magnets for your JOINTS to relieve pain. BS!
  #30  
Old 01/08/2008, 11:46 AM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
I would guess he has not been working there long and has never bench tested a membrane. All membranes have TDS creep regardless of size, type or brand, its a fact of life we have to deal with. When a membrane is sitting in a dormant state the pressures and TDS tend to stabilize on both sides thus higher TDS intially until you expel that first bunch of water. Spectrapure has developed a way to reduce the effects with their new Ultra High Efficiency system. They flush the membrane with DI water and it sits in DI when not in use so it keeps the membrane flushed well. Thats the only system of its type I am aware of.
  #31  
Old 01/08/2008, 12:10 PM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
I do know that TDS Creep is not a myth. I was going to attempt the TDS creep problem after I figured out how I was going to set this deal up.

I was actually contemplating doing DonW's idea too!

I am almost completely 'electronic illiterate' so the timing portion for me would take some time for me to comprehend ... and how to wire it.

It's funny, I have approx 250 TDS incoming with my well water. I run two 75 gpd membranes and I do have an inline TDS meter. When my RO kicks on I can get up to approx 60 or more TDS and then it will steadily drop down to around 2 TDS. This leads me to believe that a 'pass-to-drain' system would work for me.

A dilution method doesn't appeal that much to me (multiple float switches in the reservoir), but I'll definitely consider it.
  #32  
Old 01/08/2008, 12:35 PM
wife no likey wife no likey is offline
Just a member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally posted by jmc74
listen; I work installing/servicing RO systems, and the TSD creep is the biggest bunch of CRAP I ever heard, is like the Magnets for your JOINTS to relieve pain. BS!
maybe I should have put some magnets on my DI housing before. ..they may have kept my resin from disappearing before my very eyes.


If you would like to try out the solenoid setup, I could get a list of parts together and we could work it out.

Pete
  #33  
Old 01/08/2008, 01:25 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
http://www.spectrapure.com/St_PTD_p0.htm

You might see if they still carry these. I am not sure if they are in their current catalog or not.
  #34  
Old 01/08/2008, 01:28 PM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
Quote:
Originally posted by wife no likey
maybe I should have put some magnets on my DI housing before. ..they may have kept my resin from disappearing before my very eyes.


If you would like to try out the solenoid setup, I could get a list of parts together and we could work it out.

Pete
Thanks! I will keep that in mind and I appreciate the input.

I'm gonna have to think about about this whole setup. I will be using my unit for the kitchen, but It's going to take some time to figure out a practical way to keep a reservoir in the crawlspace for water changes.

I don't mind pumping water up to the main level to fill a temporary mixing station. I just have a lot on my plate with this one.
  #35  
Old 01/08/2008, 01:35 PM
kgross kgross is offline
Can't be listed on **
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Nampa, ID
Posts: 2,343
If you put the trash can in the crawl space with a pump you can use it for mixing saltwater, if you put the check valve between the tank and drinking water bladder tank, and still have drinking water while the trash can is refilling. You could just connect the RO to sump with a float and have an extra float for the trashcan with a pump in it to bring you water for water changes. Or, if you can swing the money get a 40 gallon pressure/bladder tank, skip the extra trash can completely. Then you could drain out 30 gallons or so of water to mix without depleting your total reserve of water. plus with a larger pressure tank, TDS creep should be less of an issue also. Then plumbing would be a lot easier also, just one tank with multiple T's feeding drinking water and tank and an outlet for mixing station.

Kim
__________________
America will only be the Land of the Free as long as it is the Home of the Brave.
  #36  
Old 01/08/2008, 01:43 PM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
Quote:
Originally posted by AZDesertRat
http://www.spectrapure.com/St_PTD_p0.htm

You might see if they still carry these. I am not sure if they are in their current catalog or not.
Thanks for the link! I was never able to find it ... and I've tried too.

Kinda pricy isn't it.
  #37  
Old 01/08/2008, 10:03 PM
jmc74 jmc74 is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Antioch, CA
Posts: 522
Send a message via Yahoo to jmc74
Quote:
Originally posted by manderx

what's TFT? I've only heard of CTA and TFC. who makes it?
my bad, I didn't check my typing it is TFC, I guess I got too excited



oh, and the RO creep, I have seen it on RO's that equalize only after been off for a while, but if you are using the system on a top off and also for drinking water the membrane will stay pressurized for the most part, as the auto shutoff will close when the tank is full and no more water can enter the system, so the auto shutoff closes and the RO and filters stay on pressure, just not flowing, so it is static pressure. we have few customers that run RO water on labs, for either Medical, Chemical or Industrial, and we have tested the TDS creep, because they want the purest water without going to DI or Distilled. so yes they are papers on the effects of equalization of the membrane, but when plumbed correctly you will not see an increase of TDS. or the most I personally seen is a system that produced a TDS of .002 on a supply of .366 TDS and the creep set up the TDS after 12hrs of the RO being off at .008 for few seconds or about 3oz. and this was on a membrane that was about 2yrs old.
  #38  
Old 01/08/2008, 10:43 PM
GuySmilie GuySmilie is offline
WildThing....You Moved Me
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Soybean Capital of the World
Posts: 735
Randy, with your living in Indiana, is there any issues with the crawlspace freezing the plumbing?
__________________
Guy Smilie
  #39  
Old 01/09/2008, 09:23 AM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
Not at all. My hot and cold water lines are in the crawlspace allong with the pipe running to the septic tank.
  #40  
Old 01/10/2008, 02:15 AM
laverda laverda is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Irvine, So CA
Posts: 2,456
Send a message via AIM to laverda
Why not use the waste water for your drinking water. The first two filters are better then any refrigerator filter will be. I have heard drinking lots of pure RO/DI water can actually be hard on your stomach, as it has no minerals at all. I don't have any facts to back that up, but in does make some sense, as pure RO/DI is supposed to be the most universal acid there is. By that I mean it dissolves more materials then any other acid. That is how it has picked up all the minerals, salts and everything else we strip out for our fish. I would love to see some real facts on this.
__________________
240G reef, 24G nano reef
  #41  
Old 01/10/2008, 08:55 AM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
Quote:
Originally posted by laverda
Why not use the waste water for your drinking water. The first two filters are better then any refrigerator filter will be.
The RO 'wast water' would just be sediment filtered, carbon filtered, and would likely have a high TDS. I can test it to be sure, but my intention is to have much purer drinking water.
  #42  
Old 01/10/2008, 08:25 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
I wish people would quit perpetuating the MYTH that drinking RO or RO/DI water is bad for you. Its strictly that, a myth. There is no proof that drinking DI is bad. There have been a few inconclusive studies attempted but they do nothing to prove or disprove the myth. The problem is you cannot possibly drink enough water in your lifetime to cause any effects. You would literally drown in water before any effects would be seen. Remember the radio contest where the lady died from drinking too much water???
The other problem is you would have to survive on water alone as one potato chip would give you the salt and other things found in tap water and ruin the study!

That being said, I would not drink the flush or waste stream from my RO/DI system on a regular basis. Yes it has passed through a sediment and carbon filter but it still contains total dissolved solids that are 125% of what the tap water was to begin with.
  #43  
Old 01/10/2008, 09:14 PM
big400g big400g is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Beaverton Or
Posts: 15
I have a similar situation, I decided to use one of those garden hose timers to turn on once per day for a time that gives me just enough water to compensate for Evap in my tank, this is fed through the RO/DI (which has the switch mentioned on page 1 to turn off the supply water once the float switch turns off the water to the tank) to a large holding tank that has 10 days worth of water just as backup. The float switch should last for a long time being flushed with RO/DI water. I set the holding tank at a higher elevation than the sump and used gravity to drain the holding tank into the sump. I used a float switch to control the water feed into the sump. This seems to work for me, no electrical use to feed water. As part of my routine I hit the float switch about once a month allowing more water to clean the switch. This layout has the benefit that the holding tank is filled once per day which helps the RO/DI to be more efficient (it runs for about 5 min per day), the timer is my first insurance to make sure I do not have water on the floor, the float switch in the holding tank is the second and the drain above the float switch hopefully will keep me safe. The shelf it sits on has fiberglass up the walls and a drain below. From there to the tank by using gravity and not a huge amount of water backup the float switch only allows a dribble of water so the evap and replacement are almost identical. I would like a better redundancy for the sump, I am trying to figure out a way to have 2 inline switches or something to make sure the tank does not end up with an extra dose of fresh water. Realistically unless I go on vacation I would see if the waterline is above or below the tape line that indicates the proper water level in the sump.

From what I know, water will get out and get everywhere, it will cause problems and you should make every effort to make everything redundant, floor drains are very good ideas and to only hold enough water to backup a short number of days and not have enough to sway your tank if it empties into the tank. I have a large spa maybe 500-800 gal (don’t remember) that I just purchased a few months back, I woke up and went out to the room it is in and everything was wet… it drained all the water into the drain, it was a high end spa but things happen. I had a floor drain that saved me but the rug under the pool table is soaked and in Oregon things are not drying fast… just be careful I had concrete floors looks like yours are wood framing.

Hope that gives you a few ideas.

Good luck,


-Ryan
  #44  
Old 01/11/2008, 12:04 AM
GuySmilie GuySmilie is offline
WildThing....You Moved Me
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Soybean Capital of the World
Posts: 735
Quote:
Originally posted by AZDesertRat
I wish people would quit perpetuating the MYTH that drinking RO or RO/DI water is bad for you. Its strictly that, a myth. There is no proof that drinking DI is bad. .....
Although our household does drink RO/DI water, and no one has any qualms with it, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of chlorine. Especially the long-term build up of bacteria in storage vessels and tubing.

Then I recall when I lived in the country on a shallow well for 10 years.
I never did get used to well water.
__________________
Guy Smilie
  #45  
Old 01/11/2008, 10:06 AM
RandyStacyE RandyStacyE is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,519
You can pick up a UV sterilizer for that if you are concerned. I assume that would work for ya.

It's kind of a funny scenario isn't it? Ya filter everything out of the water (especially chlorine) and now worry about not having chlorine in the water

Chlorine is NOT good for the body for many reasons.
  #46  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:06 AM
Nammy Nammy is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Stittville, New York
Posts: 1,255
Hope you're not planning to use your RO/DI (DI Portion) for drinking water.
  #47  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:21 AM
kgross kgross is offline
Can't be listed on **
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Nampa, ID
Posts: 2,343
Nammy,

Why not use the RO/DI for drinking water? Other than it causes your DI to exhaust faster?
__________________
America will only be the Land of the Free as long as it is the Home of the Brave.
  #48  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:39 AM
laverda laverda is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Irvine, So CA
Posts: 2,456
Send a message via AIM to laverda
Quote:
Originally posted by RandyStacyE
The RO 'wast water' would just be sediment filtered, carbon filtered, and would likely have a high TDS. I can test it to be sure, but my intention is to have much purer drinking water.
Yes that is true. What I am saying is most of the harmful stuff is removed by the sediment and carbon filters and our bodies do not benifit from zero TDS water.

AZDesertRat
As I said I would love to see some real facts. You may have seen Saying it is a myth does not mean it is. Just as my statements make sense to me, they may not be true. That is why I asked for facts. I would like to know what it is fact or fiction.
Steve
__________________
240G reef, 24G nano reef
  #49  
Old 01/11/2008, 12:01 PM
Nammy Nammy is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Stittville, New York
Posts: 1,255
I'm no expert but, this is some of the stuff I've read.
"Deionized water is not safe to drink". Due to purity of water and lack of minerals, too much DI water can cause condition called osmotic shock. This is a direct result of DI water removing minerals and other elements from the body's cells more rapidly that the cell walls can stand. I believe state law (all states) requires a warning sign "Deionized Water - DO NOT DRINK"

I could be wrong, it's worth checking out.

Some people say no problem, others say it's ok. I don't want to find out the hard way. I have my RO/DI setup so the drinking part is just before the DI.

Here is some information on it http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_...ineralized.pdf
  #50  
Old 01/11/2008, 12:08 PM
AZDesertRat AZDesertRat is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NW Phoenix
Posts: 12,963
No one has been able to prove it causes problems so there is no sound scientific or medical evidence to refer you to. The studies which have been conducted by CDC and others is inconclusive . You can't get a control group of people to survive on water alone for the years and years it would take to even begin to see any possible damage. One pork chop, potato chip, tortilla... whatever negates the study. Take a look at Desani water, its DI. Others are too and people drink it all the time. Do you really thing companies like CocaCola, Pepsi and others who bottle the drinking waters would open themselves up to liability suits if there was evidence to the contatry??

GuySmilie, thats why it is recommended you disinfect the filter housings every time you change filters, to reduce the possibility of virus and bacteria growth in the unit. Keep it clean and pressurized and you are good. I have drank RO at home since 1992 and am mostly normal, well if you don't count the third eye, nervous tic and constant coughing anyway.....

Last edited by AZDesertRat; 01/11/2008 at 12:19 PM.
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central™ Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2009