Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > Invert and Plant Forums > Marine Plants & Macroalgae

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #26  
Old 12/26/2007, 09:16 PM
Mavrk Mavrk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California - South Bay Area
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally posted by Triterium
Mavrk,
Your lighting is probably not the reason why your chaeto isn't growing. There might just not be nutrients or some other factor. If you have a bulb that others have had success with, there's a good chance the restricted growth is caused by something else.

I have seen both 5500K and 6500K spiral compacts marked as "Daylight" at HD. Both will work fine for chaeto.
Yeah, I think the tip on Iron might help. My nitrates are at 0 and I am running a phosban reactor full of PhosPure. I still have some algae in the tank (not excessive amounts). So I figure there are still enough nutrients in the tank to feed it.

My tank was established the beginning of August. I have never gotten good growth in the chaeto (even when I was fighting cyano). I put it in my DT and got a little extra growth, but not what I would expect. I'll try iron.
  #27  
Old 12/26/2007, 09:42 PM
Triterium Triterium is offline
Premiun Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,411
One thing i have noticed. The algaes you don't want grow much better than those you do. And usually win when competing for nutrients.
  #28  
Old 12/27/2007, 01:12 AM
Mavrk Mavrk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California - South Bay Area
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally posted by Triterium
One thing i have noticed. The algaes you don't want grow much better than those you do. And usually win when competing for nutrients.
Which is why I want to encourage my chaeto growth

As I understand it, iron will make the chaeto grow faster than the microalgae in most cases. I assume this is because macroalgae can absorb the iron better than microalgae. The chaeto should also absorb the other nutrients during this growth process (especially phosphate). This all allows the macroalgae to outcompete the microalgae. I know this is not always the case, and iron can make an algae problem worse. But if you keep an eye on things, this should not be an issue because you can always stop the iron supplementation.

I plan on giving it a try.
  #29  
Old 12/27/2007, 01:20 AM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
Quote:
Originally posted by ReefNAZOut
oct, what is the area of refugium you are covering with that light? I am curious because I am running a 96 watter coralife fixture with a 6700k bulb and I would love to get by with just a 20 watter to save on my ever expanding electrical bill.
I have two areas, but the bigger is around 16x12 inches
  #30  
Old 12/27/2007, 09:43 AM
shikhyung shikhyung is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ca
Posts: 294
I run the light on reverse with display tank for 10 hour/day. Don't see chaeto grows but:
1- Why there is cyano in the fuge, where the chaeto is?
2-Does it matter what shape the chaeto should be, round, flat...?
Thanks, shin.
  #31  
Old 12/27/2007, 11:15 AM
Mavrk Mavrk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California - South Bay Area
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally posted by shikhyung
I run the light on reverse with display tank for 10 hour/day. Don't see chaeto grows but:
1- Why there is cyano in the fuge, where the chaeto is?
2-Does it matter what shape the chaeto should be, round, flat...?
Thanks, shin.
It is common to have cyano in the sump/fuge if you have a cyano outbreak. Is this a new tank?

I suggest you put the chaeto in the DT for a few days (at least 3 or more) and turn off the light to your fuge. This will help the cyano issue a lot.
  #32  
Old 12/27/2007, 12:26 PM
GS-Rock GS-Rock is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ft sill. okla
Posts: 328
great info, i have chaeto growing in my main tank and in my overflow w/o light, but it also grows faster in my sump with a 32watt cf light, my hd has cf flood lights w/reflectors built in, they work great, i have it anywhere between 4-6 inches away from the water, i lit it 12/12 and 24 hours, i didnt see much of a difference in growth or in the tank, i think as long as its still green and slowly growing its working. one thing i did notice was i have (i think0 more pods/critters with the 12/12 lighting, i think because the light was off when i looked into the sump
__________________
soap is magical...
  #33  
Old 12/27/2007, 09:35 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
cool, good to hear. I kinda noticed that not using 24/7 lighting helped increase my pod/amphipod populations as well, but have no real proof. I do think alot of those critters are nocturnal.
  #34  
Old 12/27/2007, 11:19 PM
shikhyung shikhyung is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ca
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally posted by Mavrk
It is common to have cyano in the sump/fuge if you have a cyano outbreak. Is this a new tank?

I suggest you put the chaeto in the DT for a few days (at least 3 or more) and turn off the light to your fuge. This will help the cyano issue a lot.
The tank is 2years old. I once had cyano, but it's all gone. After that I build the fuge (10 gallons size shared with the sum). Rock is from the sum, I have 1 max950 mod for circulation. Flow is shared from the overflow( 100gallon/hour) then back to the return line. So basically, only the chaeto is new. Shin.

BTW, pic showed the florsent lamp. I now use the sprial flood light from Lowe. 90w maybe!!

  #35  
Old 12/28/2007, 12:14 PM
Mavrk Mavrk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California - South Bay Area
Posts: 1,088
Quote:
Originally posted by shikhyung
The tank is 2years old. I once had cyano, but it's all gone. After that I build the fuge (10 gallons size shared with the sum). Rock is from the sum, I have 1 max950 mod for circulation. Flow is shared from the overflow( 100gallon/hour) then back to the return line. So basically, only the chaeto is new. Shin.

BTW, pic showed the florsent lamp. I now use the sprial flood light from Lowe. 90w maybe!!

Where did you get the chaeto? Looks like it may have had some cyano spores in there. I'd kill the light in the sump for a few days and see if that helps (although it looks like it might get a lot of ambient light with that setup).
  #36  
Old 12/28/2007, 06:34 PM
Plantbrain Plantbrain is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 528
I think based on your system, and your past comments with cyano and others, that the Chateo is really NO3 limited..........removing more PO4 is not going resolve it either.

Just leave it alone, feed the tank more.

This is a well supported in aquatic systems amd seemed really missed by most on this forum and elsewhere when it comes to noxious micro algae vs the much large macro algae:

The smaller the the organism, the easier it can grow and compete at lower concentrations of nutrients/resources.

So BGA can compete and live at much lower ranges than Chaeto.
They are not even in the same niche ecologically for that matter.

Rather than obsessing with less PO4 and less NO3, and believing less or none is "best", think about it.

Both need N and P to grow.

Yet one can survive beyond the range of any testing equipment you own(unless you do aquatic pelagic algal research), the other needs a fair amount more, about 10-100X more.

The other issue that befuddles the marine aquarist and macro algae/noxious pest algae for that matter: nutrients are rapidly, and lot more so rapidly utilized and recycled at a MUCH faster rate when the tank is lean to start with.

So if there is not much available, then the nutrients are going to be used much much faster, so as fast as it is excreted as waste or dosed to the tank, it will used and the test kit will never measure a thing in the water column to start with, thus bioavailability and what is the residual in the water column are not even correlated.

As you increase the nutrients, say adding KNO3 or KH2PO4 to see, then you'll note a residual that you can measure. There's enough there to see the cycling and uptake over a unit of time.

If you are talking 10ppb, then things happen much faster.

There is also the issue or Organically bound forms of N and P and how fast they are mineralized. Few test kits made for hobbyists differentiate between these forms and bioavailability etc.
This is an old old issue for researchers however.

Still, it applies here the same.

You can also see a push pull effect on PO4 by adding NO3 to such systems that are NO3 limited. Then the PO4 levels plummet.

It's very difficult to see if the ratios of PO4 or NO3 are limiting in such super lean systems. Noxious algae like to bloom/germinate during such transitions and use these changes as germination signals during seasonal and other events in natural system.

Means it's a good time to grow and complete a life cycle.

Chaeto will leach out nutrients in lean systems also as it's not growing well, so often the BGa will grow near/on it. Organic material in the sediment also allows this to happen as well as providing a good surface substrate for the BGa to grow as well.

With good growth of the macros, you will have little noxious algae.
They(noxious algae) can "tell" that someone else is there and growin well. Keep it stable and do not obsess with zero ppms for NO3 and PO4, low is fine, but never absent.

Clean it out every so often and remove excess growth and organic matter, that will go a long long way to helping the macros serve you much better.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #37  
Old 12/29/2007, 01:07 AM
bigScott bigScott is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Go Sooners
Posts: 1,334
Send a message via AIM to bigScott
ive used many different type of lights on my cheato..i found no matter what lights i used it grew faster with water flo more air flo..its gone from a dark green to a light green in less than a week.. an i dont run a skimmer ..its in a 40 long sump..with 2 forty breeders on top..it runs for 12 hours a day..hope that helps..

scott
  #38  
Old 12/29/2007, 08:54 PM
theimpulsive1 theimpulsive1 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 7
Send a message via AIM to theimpulsive1
good stuff
  #39  
Old 12/30/2007, 12:21 PM
Plantbrain Plantbrain is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally posted by bigScott
ive used many different type of lights on my cheato..i found no matter what lights i used it grew faster with water flo more air flo..its gone from a dark green to a light green in less than a week.. an i dont run a skimmer ..its in a 40 long sump..with 2 forty breeders on top..it runs for 12 hours a day..hope that helps..

scott
Yep, this is certainly true, more flow=> less boundary layers and you should get better growth (well, up to point).
Aeration breaks up the boundary layers and adds CO2 for the weed to grow.

The stickyness adhesion from small micro bubbles and high current wave action blast off many smaller noxious pest algae also.

Some folks run their skimmer outflow in the fuge, some do the post skimmer fuge, I like the aeration and mist effects in the fuges no matter what, you can likely use less flow and get the same results, perhaps better, with aeration or skimmer outflow.

Most all algae/plants(at least the types we keep), will adapt over a wide range of PAR, your "wimpy" coral types may not however. So light is really a question of intensity/PAR, not color type. Given a month or so, most will alll be adapted very well to what ever is provided.

Regards,
Tom Barr



Regards,
Tom Barr
  #40  
Old 12/30/2007, 12:27 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
my fuge does get direct flow from my skimmer so maybe that is part of the success..............
  #41  
Old 12/30/2007, 05:57 PM
shikhyung shikhyung is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ca
Posts: 294
My fuge is only 10gallons, with a max900 mod circulate, it should be more than enough...This morning, I such a bunch of cyano out of it. what is missing in my set up.
  #42  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:11 PM
Hendersonracing Hendersonracing is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 991
so who uses iron??? will this help??
__________________
Joe Henderson
  #43  
Old 01/07/2008, 12:53 AM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
iron was one of the turn around points for my chaeto. follow the instructions i posted first and see if that helps
  #44  
Old 01/07/2008, 09:48 AM
Hendersonracing Hendersonracing is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 991
oK Ive just been warned about adding Iron...but Im with you....my cheato hasn't grown and I have plenty flow in the tank & light??? and its covered with algae on the glass???mabe a shot of iron will help!
__________________
Joe Henderson
  #45  
Old 01/07/2008, 11:06 AM
Plantbrain Plantbrain is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally posted by oct2274
my fuge does get direct flow from my skimmer so maybe that is part of the success..............
Yes, perhaps.

I think ideally, you'd have the fuge 1st, then post skimmer.

Good current, microbubbles in the fuge is still great though.
So having a wet/dry or a Berlin with a filter sock 1st, then right in that area, a refuge/live rock etc, then a skimmer would get the most out of both.

That would give good gas/micro bubbles and maxmimize the seaweeds for 1st chance at the nutrients before the skimmer gets them.

But a lot of things pass by the fuge and the skimmer a number of times unless you have a really large fuge or skimmer.


Regards,
Tom Barr
  #46  
Old 01/07/2008, 11:18 AM
Plantbrain Plantbrain is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 528
Fe will help and I'd suggest it. Darker greens, faster growth after 1-3 weeks with good nutrients.

The saving grace for Cheato is that it can tolerant a wide range of conditions and still live and grow.

But if you want to optimize it's growth, you need to address the trade offs between the optimal parameters for Cheato, and that of corals, or other critters you might have in the tank.

There are a lot of myths, and perhaps a few a truths in there with these different sets of parameters.

Mostly myths from what I've read and seen, tested etc.
But few have ever tested this stuff critically and with a control(the biggest issue with the hobbyist trying to deduce anything).

If you cannot consistently produce a control, which is typically a very successful tank without any issues as a starting point, all you have is a tank lacking controls
This really stymies the aquarist, but many seem to think they can find cause and effect. You might get some correlation, but that's about it, it's like convicting someone in the court of law based solely on circumstantial evidence. They might be guilty(or not), but the evidence cannot say

I'm amazed at how many folks will try though.........and argue..and try every sort of rational to claim that their issues are related, rather than to test critically.

But..........they have to be able to provide a control to begin with, and if they could do that, they'd not have the issue in the first place

So it's a catch 22 for them.

Same deal with other branches of the hobby, planted tanks, fish diseases, and various snake oil concoctions......ad nauseum............

Regards,
Tom Barr








Regards,
Tom Barr
  #47  
Old 01/07/2008, 12:34 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
Quote:
Originally posted by Hendersonracing
oK Ive just been warned about adding Iron...but Im with you....my cheato hasn't grown and I have plenty flow in the tank & light??? and its covered with algae on the glass???mabe a shot of iron will help!
I'm not sure why you were warned about dosing iron, but like I originally stated in one of my first posts I don't even dose as much as recommended on the bottle and I stop when my growth is good.

Read this if you are worried:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm
  #48  
Old 01/07/2008, 02:25 PM
MMM33732 MMM33732 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ohio
Posts: 197
I've been using iron now for a little while and it has made a difference. Cheato has about doubled in the past 2-3 weeks. I'm not sure how much is actaully available for the cheato to use though as I run carbon 24/7 and I'm not sure if carbon absorbs iron or not.

I've been having issues with bubbles cause my cheato to float. I noticed the section directly under the light was a pale green. I cut some rigid airline pieces slightly longer than my fuge and pushed them over the cheato to make sort of a lid (like a cage) to keep the cheato under water. The next day I noticed the entire top portion of the cheato was turning the pale green. My light is a 26w cf about 2 inches above the water. I moved the light up as far as I could so now its about 7 inches above the water and the cheato is about 3 inches under the water. Hopefully that'll help. I'll keep you updated.
  #49  
Old 01/07/2008, 03:16 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ahwatukee, AZ
Posts: 2,156
i think at 7 inches you'll be ok. I have two fuges going right now once light at 9" at the moment and the other at 4". The same water going through both. The the chaeto under the light at 4" inches is almost yellow with just a tint of green. The chaeto at 9" looks much healthier and more of a medium green. The chaeto under the 4" is still growing though, it just looks like it's dieing. I only use the 20 watt bulbs though so I'm guessing if I was using the 26 watt bulb at 4" it would look even worse or die off.
  #50  
Old 01/07/2008, 08:11 PM
Mavrk Mavrk is offline
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: California - South Bay Area
Posts: 1,088
I started dosing iron last night (Kent). I have 80-85 gallons of water running through my system, but I am doing the daily dose for 50 gallons. I figure I would try the daily to start, then go to the weekly if things work out.

I'll keep you posted how things work out.
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2009