Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community Archives > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01/05/2008, 09:34 PM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
New salt/ozone

Okay i am really confused. I have been using tropic marin reef pro for over a year. A local vendor named gettankedaquariums.com offered me salt he sells for free to try it. He wants to be a sponsor of our local club. Its a 2 part organice salt that you add the calicium after the sat is mixed. My PH is much higher and all levels are great as promised. I have about 150 total water volume. I did a 25 gallon water change weekly. When I do this my ORP drops from 400 to about 325 and takes about 48 hours to reach 400. When I used the new salt my orp was back to 400 within an hour. I was in shock.

Is this normal? Why did it happen? My RO/DI water was no different. My ORP was low at about 375 right after I did the change and just went back to 400 within the hour. I am in shock.
my calcium is 400 and DKH 9.5 the same as before the water change. my PH was 8.0 before and was 8.15 after. I do not check magnesium. Should I keep using this salt? I have a 95% sps system

I hope this makes scenes to you.

Thanks
Jay
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #2  
Old 01/05/2008, 11:07 PM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
Jay,

I would call Garry to get his opinion. His salt is in my opinion good stuff. I feel confident in saying you can trust what he tells you. The only thing I here people complaining about is the high PH. That is only because the calcium is seperate. If you mix up the calcium and slowly add it to your mixed water the PH will be normal. Like I said I have been using it now for a few months and am EXTREMLY happy with the way it keeps my parameters. But do yourself a favor call Garry.........BILL
  #3  
Old 01/05/2008, 11:10 PM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
OH and to answer your question.......In my opinion Even tropic Marin can not get your tank crystal clear because the calcium is in the mix. When you have a salt with calcium in it you are going to get precipitation that is what causes the cloudiness. I would guess that with the tropic marin you were getting a slight percipitation that takes the time to clear itself out. With the new salt you are net getting the percipitation causing your ORP to stay up. Just a thought. BILL
  #4  
Old 01/05/2008, 11:12 PM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
Quote:
Originally posted by RBU1
Jay,

I would call Garry to get his opinion. His salt is in my opinion good stuff. I feel confident in saying you can trust what he tells you. The only thing I here people complaining about is the high PH. That is only because the calcium is seperate. If you mix up the calcium and slowly add it to your mixed water the PH will be normal. Like I said I have been using it now for a few months and am EXTREMLY happy with the way it keeps my parameters. But do yourself a favor call Garry.........BILL
My Ph did level out . I just looked with all lights out 8.0. I added the calcium to the water and mixed it for 20 minutes then I did the water change. I tested my calcium its 400. I am just curious about eh ORP rebounding so fast.
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #5  
Old 01/05/2008, 11:17 PM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
Quote:
Originally posted by RBU1
OH and to answer your question.......In my opinion Even tropic Marin can not get your tank crystal clear because the calcium is in the mix. When you have a salt with calcium in it you are going to get precipitation that is what causes the cloudiness. I would guess that with the tropic marin you were getting a slight percipitation that takes the time to clear itself out. With the new salt you are net getting the percipitation causing your ORP to stay up. Just a thought. BILL
I thought that the organic waste is what the ozone removed and would get the ORP reading to go up.

I am so confused

Thanks for the responses.
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #6  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:05 AM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
When I do a water change. I dont add the calcium till the new water is in tank. I usually do a water change then mix up that little bag with a squirt bottle full of RO water. I then add it to the tank a little at a time. I noticed my PH goes up about 2 points. It usually goes from 8.1 to 8.3. I will be surprised if you are not real happy with this salt. I bet tomorrow your SPS will look better than ever!!!!! The polyps will be out so far you will not believe your eyes......Man you might think I am a salesperson for Garry........ Talk to you Jay I am off to bed now............BILL
  #7  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:51 AM
Billybeau1 Billybeau1 is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dyer, Indiana
Posts: 6,369
A drop in ORP after a water change with any salt is normal.

The ORP of freshly mixed salt water is around 220-240 mv. So yes it will take a little time to recover depending on the volume of the water change.

I have no clue why this mysterious new salt mix recovered so quickly. Unless somehow there are permaganates in the salt mix. Don't even know if its possible. Randy or Boomer would know. Boomers out of town for awhile. We'll see what Randy says in the morning.

Last edited by Billybeau1; 01/06/2008 at 02:00 AM.
  #8  
Old 01/06/2008, 07:12 AM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
I am curious what Randy has to say. I hope he was not out later on Saturday night.
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #9  
Old 01/06/2008, 08:28 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
Reef Chemist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 52,068
Water changes almost always cause a drop in ORP. It is no concern at all. It just means that the balance of ions like iron are in more reduced forms (Fe++ compared to Fe+++). How much it happens and how long it last just depends on how many electrochemically active ions were present. I would also not conclude it is better (or worse) for it to go down less and bounce back faster.

FWIW, if the alkalinity is the same, the salt mix will not have any lasting impact on the pH. It is the interplay of all of the sources and sinks of CO2, along with alkalinity, that determines the tank pH.
__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
  #10  
Old 01/06/2008, 09:12 AM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Water changes almost always cause a drop in ORP. It is no concern at all. It just means that the balance of ions like iron are in more reduced forms (Fe++ compared to Fe+++). How much it happens and how long it last just depends on how many electrochemically active ions were present. I would also not conclude it is better (or worse) for it to go down less and bounce back faster.

FWIW, if the alkalinity is the same, the salt mix will not have any lasting impact on the pH. It is the interplay of all of the sources and sinks of CO2, along with alkalinity, that determines the tank pH.
Thank you Randy. One last question. What are you feelings on Organic Salt mixes?
What would be a true test that i could do to see if I should change???
I am still in shock that my Ozone really only needed one hour to recover the ORP reading of 400. I got up this morning and it is now 450 and the unit is set for 400. The probe is clean no slime on it. It was going to about 425 on its own before i tried the new salt.


thanks
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #11  
Old 01/06/2008, 09:15 AM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
[Copyrighted advertising removed]
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President

Last edited by bertoni; 01/06/2008 at 06:32 PM.
  #12  
Old 01/06/2008, 10:44 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
Reef Chemist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 52,068
Yes, I've read and discussed their marketing propaganda before.

Organic Salt mixes

I don't have any idea what that actually means. At the least it is quite ridiculous convolution of a scientific term for something that is nearly if not entirely inorganic. They are actually criticizing other companies for adding organic compounds.

That write up is, unfortunately, quite misleading. EDTA and metal chelators are not used in typical mixes like Instant Ocean.
__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
  #13  
Old 01/06/2008, 10:47 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
Reef Chemist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 52,068
I am still in shock that my Ozone really only needed one hour to recover the ORP reading of 400. I got up this morning and it is now 450 and the unit is set for 400. The probe is clean no slime on it. It was going to about 425 on its own before i tried the new salt.


FWIW, that may not be a benefit. A little hypochlorite in the mix would drive ORP up. Would that be good? Maybe it is just a little ferric chloride or a high oxidation state of manganese. Whatever. I'm certainly not saying they do any of these intentionally, but high ORP in a raw salt mix is not necessarily preferred, IMO.
__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
  #14  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:07 AM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
Randy,

Would you be willing to try/test this salt mix for us? I am sure you will be happy with it. Let me know I am sure I can talk Garry into sending you a free sample.
  #15  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:18 AM
Randy Holmes-Farley Randy Holmes-Farley is offline
Reef Chemist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 52,068
Test it for what? In my tank? I think I'll stick with IO, but that doesn't mean that I think there is anything wrong with it. Just not enough reason to want to switch to something else.
__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
  #16  
Old 01/06/2008, 11:27 AM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
OK that is fine but I think you will like the results you see. More stable water parameters and less dosing other things. I would just like to see a well respected person such as yourself try it. BILL
  #17  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:10 PM
DrBDC DrBDC is offline
Team RC Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ballwin, Missouri
Posts: 9,622
Send a message via Yahoo to DrBDC
Quote:
Originally posted by RBU1
More stable water parameters and less dosing other things.
What do you mean by more stable? And less dosing of what? I'm a bit confused about the dosing especially. Does it somehow make the tank consume less Ca and alk or the levels are elevated so that it takes longer to get down to NSW levels? Or do you mean in the initial salt mix that the ca doesn't need raised some on the new salt mix?
__________________
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge, some just gargle, but most are rabid.
  #18  
Old 01/06/2008, 12:42 PM
billsreef billsreef is offline
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 12,688
Send a message via ICQ to billsreef Send a message via AIM to billsreef Send a message via Yahoo to billsreef
Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
That write up is, unfortunately, quite misleading.
Why is that some salt manufactures seem to rely on such marketing gobbledygook?

How is an inorganic substance (salt water) suddenly become manufactured as an "organic" mix? Is there some carbon based (organic) chemical included? Or is just being used as a meaningless marketing term like with organic veggies?

Doesn't mean the salt mix is a bad one to use, but IMO their marketing stinks.
__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)
  #19  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:16 PM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
Doesn't mean the salt mix is a bad one to use, but IMO their marketing stinks.


Bill whos marketing would you mean??


I have spoken to the vendor for the salt mix. I am at this time going to use the salt for a few months and see how it does. It boils down to cost. $70 a bucket versus 40$. I really do want the best for my sps. If my corals look as good with this new salt then I will be happy.
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #20  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:29 PM
billsreef billsreef is offline
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 12,688
Send a message via ICQ to billsreef Send a message via AIM to billsreef Send a message via Yahoo to billsreef
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay4Robin
Bill whos marketing would you mean??
You know all that stuff you quoted from a certain salt manufacturer's website? It's got a lot of meaningless ramblings

BTW, whens the last time you saw a salt mix that didn't cake with a little exposure to moisture?
__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)
  #21  
Old 01/06/2008, 01:59 PM
Jay4Robin Jay4Robin is offline
Indiana Jones Of SPS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 2,807
Send a message via AIM to Jay4Robin
I remember purchased brand a long time ago that I needed a hammer every time I mixed salt.
I did use to use Io when I first started the hobby, Then I saw oceanic. That was a mistake. Then I went to some other company that I needed the hammer.
Now I use TM pro but the cost is crazy. I have had good luck for over a year. I am sure that my system will do well with any salt now. I have everything inline and stable. I will try this organic mix for a few months. My corals look great and everything tests perfect.
He is local and I have read alot of great feedback about him in another forum. You never know he may become a RC sponsor

Thanks for the response Bill. I miss that Long Island humor. Sad news about Les. tell him I said hello.
__________________
One day I will not have to scrape my windows!

DVRC Vice President
  #22  
Old 01/06/2008, 03:36 PM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
All I can say is don't knock it till you try it.........I lay odds you will be real happy with the reults.
  #23  
Old 01/06/2008, 03:39 PM
billsreef billsreef is offline
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 12,688
Send a message via ICQ to billsreef Send a message via AIM to billsreef Send a message via Yahoo to billsreef
Not knocking the salt, just the marketing hype. Misleading marketing is a pet peeve of mine
__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)
  #24  
Old 01/06/2008, 04:00 PM
RBU1 RBU1 is offline
Take your time...........
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,019
I understand....I really don't like statements that are not true. But all the statements made on [link removed] are true. Bill if you would try the salt your corals will thank you. I just noticed an sps coral that I wrote off. It has been partially buried in the sand. This coral has been in my tank for 6 months. Since I started using Garry's salt I now see some polyps starting to come out.
BILL

Last edited by bertoni; 01/06/2008 at 06:51 PM.
  #25  
Old 01/06/2008, 04:26 PM
billsreef billsreef is offline
Moderator
10 & Over Club
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 12,688
Send a message via ICQ to billsreef Send a message via AIM to billsreef Send a message via Yahoo to billsreef
I don't use salt mixes these days. Nice fringe benefit of running a wet lab is the use of NSW from a SW well

However, when I have used SW mixes of various brands over the years, they all would clump with exposure to moisture in the air. Wouldn't happen if they used anti caking agents like gettanked claims they all do Besides, if it was really so necessary for mixing, how would he be able to mix salt without it himself? See what I'm driving at? Some claims are just marketing without real substance. Your more likely to find YSP used in water softener salts or table salt than sea salt mixes
__________________
Bill

"LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi)
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef Central Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2009