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  #26  
Old 11/27/2007, 12:29 PM
svb57 svb57 is offline
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My set-up, which has been going strong with all SPS, LPS, and fish thriving, has a temperature that is set at 80 degrees. However, the actual temp goes from 79 at night to 82 during the day and I have to say I have never seen any impact to growth or health.

If you believe that you need to hold a constant temp in the tank then by all means please do so. If it will make you happier and give you a piece of mind. It's like when I am asked why do I run carbon 24/7...my reply is that I have always done it and if it has worked for me I am not about to change. Each person has to decide on his/her own what works for them and the tank thaey have.

My 2 cents.
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  #27  
Old 11/27/2007, 12:30 PM
fierceseaman fierceseaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenbean36191


I've seen no evidence of this either in the wild or in captivity. The corals look the same and the growth rates aren't noticably different IME. People have shown experimentally that corals have better growth at higher temps and they withstand thermal stress better when they're used to higher temps and unstable temps. I can't think of any strong argument for keeping them at lower or more stable than natural temps.

My tank runs 78-86 and houses everything from zoas to Acropora.

What temperatures were seen to have better growth? Does your tank stay more on the 80+ side?
  #28  
Old 11/27/2007, 12:52 PM
reptilemanmark reptilemanmark is offline
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I was keeping my tank around 80f because the owner of the LOF said that`s where it should be. The guys at Walt Smith`s will tell you to keep things at 75f I could not believe what they were telling me. So I lowered my heater down to around 75f. I have a fan in the sump coming on at 77f. My temps are 78-79 day 75-76 night. Seems like everything is ok. I was running 79 to 83 before talking to W. Smiths people.
  #29  
Old 11/27/2007, 05:18 PM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Quote:
I guess they & I are wrong based on all of the info in this thread. I'm going home & turning my chiller off.
I certainly wouldn't recommend that if your tank is prone to swing. There is no doubt that temp swings can be stressful and even deadly to marine animals. That just isn't the natural condition. It's about acclimation. If your tank has been stable for even a few weeks then the animals are probably poorly suited to handle a swing of more than a few degrees now. Just unplugging the chiller may not be very kind to them. If you truly do plan to do away with the chiller I would slowly increase the allowable swing on the controller over the course of a month or so.

Quote:
What temperatures were seen to have better growth? Does your tank stay more on the 80+ side?
Well, that depends a whole lot on which study you look at. It's a general trend, not an observation about a specific temperature or range. For the few corals where growth optima are known though, they're around the 83-84 range.

For the majority of the year the tank stays above 82. It only drops below 80 on winter nights.
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Last edited by greenbean36191; 11/27/2007 at 05:27 PM.
  #30  
Old 11/27/2007, 06:27 PM
Buckyez Buckyez is offline
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My tank's temp swings between 77-81 from night to day. I used to run a heater at night to keep it around 79, but never replace it after it died months ago. No problem with the tank so far. All SPS, LPS and softies are doing fine.

--Bucky
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  #31  
Old 11/27/2007, 06:36 PM
coral rules coral rules is offline
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Mine stays consistent 78.9 now in the cooler weather and around 80 in the summer.
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  #32  
Old 11/27/2007, 07:05 PM
InLimbo87 InLimbo87 is offline
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I've always tried to minimize my tank swings to less than a couple degrees, but this thread has brought up some interesting points about swings on the reefs.

Tagging along...
  #33  
Old 11/27/2007, 07:32 PM
mysterybox mysterybox is offline
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Eric Borneman:


There are relatively few tropical coral reefs that are in the 70's except perhaps slightly more subtropical ones during winter or those that happen to exist in areas of persistent upwelling or colder currents. Few of the animals, especially corals, are collected from these areas. Temperatures on the reefs where are animals are collected are generally always above 80 and generally below 88. Daily swings of from 0-12 degrees F are not uncommon and can happen several times a day. Temperature is truly not one of the things to worry about in tanks unless you can say what strains of zooxanthellae are present, where the corals were collected from, what species (and thus their environmental sensitivity), synergistic stressors (as corals do well near their upper thermal limits) and to ensure that temperatures do not exceed, say, 90F for extended periods of time. A swing from mid70's to 90 (for example, a heater malfunction) that lasts for a day will probably cause problems for some animals if they are acclimated to a constant temperature. The problems with losing animals from temperature related events is what happens when they die in a closed system and most of the mass tank losses from such events is probably not a direct result of high temps alone. But, I also feel that given the multitiude of things that can go wrong in tanks and the fact that they are tanks withouth the inherent variability of the ocean, that pushing temps to the uppper limit where they might be happiest in the wild may not be ideal in tanks. So, I think 82-84 is right where you have some safety margin in upper thermal limits and within the range where most tropical reef corals and those collected for the trade do best.


Johnathan Bertoni:

I target 82 F as the base temperature for my tanks. I haven't seen any reason to go lower for a tropical reef tank. I agree with Eric's analysis. There's a lot of studies in this area, if you want to do some research.


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I target 82!
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  #34  
Old 11/27/2007, 09:08 PM
m2434 m2434 is offline
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Tank swings great topic! I shoot for 82, but also try to induce chaotic temperature swings. I think that cnidarians have an ability to adapt via chromatin structural reorganization and modified gene expression. Want to make sure that any chromatin or DNA modifications, such as methylation, ubiquitination or acetylation, events will advantageous (or at least won't be detrimental) in the future when uncontrollable events take place.

Of course references for this theory are negligible and (in the hobby) I may be alone in this opinion... But there does seem to be a benefit to temp swings regardless of the mechanism.
  #35  
Old 11/27/2007, 09:40 PM
Mappelbaum37 Mappelbaum37 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsw686
Mine runs 80F at night to 83F during the day. Personally I would rather run it around 80 than in the high 70s. If you have a power failure, etc you have a longer time before the temp drops.
Right, but when the temperature does drop if it is at high 70's theres not going to be a bigger drop in temperature oppose to it being low 80's even though it would take longer in the low 80's.
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  #36  
Old 11/29/2007, 06:35 AM
reptilemanmark reptilemanmark is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mysterybox
Eric Borneman:


There are relatively few tropical coral reefs that are in the 70's except perhaps slightly more subtropical ones during winter or those that happen to exist in areas of persistent upwelling or colder currents. Few of the animals, especially corals, are collected from these areas. Temperatures on the reefs where are animals are collected are generally always above 80 and generally below 88. Daily swings of from 0-12 degrees F are not uncommon and can happen several times a day. Temperature is truly not one of the things to worry about in tanks unless you can say what strains of zooxanthellae are present, where the corals were collected from, what species (and thus their environmental sensitivity), synergistic stressors (as corals do well near their upper thermal limits) and to ensure that temperatures do not exceed, say, 90F for extended periods of time. A swing from mid70's to 90 (for example, a heater malfunction) that lasts for a day will probably cause problems for some animals if they are acclimated to a constant temperature. The problems with losing animals from temperature related events is what happens when they die in a closed system and most of the mass tank losses from such events is probably not a direct result of high temps alone. But, I also feel that given the multitiude of things that can go wrong in tanks and the fact that they are tanks withouth the inherent variability of the ocean, that pushing temps to the uppper limit where they might be happiest in the wild may not be ideal in tanks. So, I think 82-84 is right where you have some safety margin in upper thermal limits and within the range where most tropical reef corals and those collected for the trade do best.


Johnathan Bertoni:

I target 82 F as the base temperature for my tanks. I haven't seen any reason to go lower for a tropical reef tank. I agree with Eric's analysis. There's a lot of studies in this area, if you want to do some research.


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I target 82!
I agree that the surface temps are 78 -88 f. But where the corals are is not, the temp drops about 1 deg. for every 10 feet down. Most of the corals from fiji are harvested at 20 to 80 feet down. Sometimes even deeper this is the info that Walt Smith`s people have given. That puts temps down in the mid 70`s. Only in tidal lagoons of 15 feet are less take these huge swings in temp.
  #37  
Old 11/29/2007, 08:51 AM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Quote:
I agree that the surface temps are 78 -88 f. But where the corals are is not, the temp drops about 1 deg. for every 10 feet down. Most of the corals from fiji are harvested at 20 to 80 feet down. Sometimes even deeper this is the info that Walt Smith`s people have given. That puts temps down in the mid 70`s. Only in tidal lagoons of 15 feet are less take these huge swings in temp.
Not at all true. The first 90-120 ft are "well mixed" meaning not that they're uniform in temp, but there isn't a strong trend of dropping temp. The average drop is .5-3.5 degrees F down to the thermocline (90-120 ft), not 1 degree per 10 ft. There are temp readings for Fiji at 30 ft available online. You'll see that they're roughly the same as surface temps. Most people with experience diving on the reef can attest to the fact that at 70 ft it's not 7 degrees cooler.

Also, it's been shown as well that variation increases with depth. Except in really shallow water or in enclosed areas the sun isn't the key player in temp swings. Corals that don't see fluctuations are the exception, not the norm. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been shown that it's not uncommon for over half of the yearly variation to occur within 1 minute. When I was working in the Bahamas at 70 ft we saw several almost instant changes of 3-6 degrees. My buddy who had temp loggers around the island recorded several quick 10 degree changes at 50 ft.
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  #38  
Old 11/29/2007, 10:22 AM
stevedola stevedola is offline
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is there any truth to the idea that fish in warmer water respirate faster and therefore endure more stress and over time will decrease their life span?
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  #39  
Old 11/29/2007, 11:23 AM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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In general, warmer temperatures equal faster metabolism. Faster metabolism doesn't equal stress though. Within the normal range of reef temps it won't have a significant impact on their longevity.
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  #40  
Old 11/30/2007, 07:07 AM
reptilemanmark reptilemanmark is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenbean36191
Not at all true. The first 90-120 ft are "well mixed" meaning not that they're uniform in temp, but there isn't a strong trend of dropping temp. The average drop is .5-3.5 degrees F down to the thermocline (90-120 ft), not 1 degree per 10 ft. There are temp readings for Fiji at 30 ft available online. You'll see that they're roughly the same as surface temps. Most people with experience diving on the reef can attest to the fact that at 70 ft it's not 7 degrees cooler.

Also, it's been shown as well that variation increases with depth. Except in really shallow water or in enclosed areas the sun isn't the key player in temp swings. Corals that don't see fluctuations are the exception, not the norm. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been shown that it's not uncommon for over half of the yearly variation to occur within 1 minute. When I was working in the Bahamas at 70 ft we saw several almost instant changes of 3-6 degrees. My buddy who had temp loggers around the island recorded several quick 10 degree changes at 50 ft.
Probly should of said up to 1 deg. per every 10 feet drop. I would like to see the sites that list temps at lower depths? The people at Walt Smith Fiji said that where these corals are collected its in the mid 70s! Most of the dive sites say bring suites for 76 to 78 deg. dives up to 100 feet. I have never been there myself. But have divided in Mexico, Bahamas, Florida. And there is a drop in temp on the way down. It probly does vary depending on time of year and the currents in that area.
  #41  
Old 11/30/2007, 07:49 AM
spanglish spanglish is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenbean36191
In general, warmer temperatures equal faster metabolism. Faster metabolism doesn't equal stress though. Within the normal range of reef temps it won't have a significant impact on their longevity.
Faster metabolism = thin fish!

Excellent reading.

Greenbean, I always enjoy your input, but your avatar
is just downright distracting! Who is that?
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  #42  
Old 11/30/2007, 07:59 AM
greenbean36191 greenbean36191 is offline
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Here's a site that shows the average of 6 sites around Fiji's reefs at 30 ft.

If I remember I'll post some more data for the Caribbean, Palau, and a few other places.

Quote:
Faster metabolism = thin fish!
If you skimp on feeding.
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  #43  
Old 11/30/2007, 08:20 AM
scotmc scotmc is offline
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I was wondering why most of the major suppliers give a 72-78 range for keeping fish and coral? Most people here are around 80. I am around 76-79.
  #44  
Old 11/30/2007, 08:29 AM
sirreal63 sirreal63 is offline
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In my opinion and what I understand it was always suggested because it keeps metabolism lower. This may have been important at one time in this very young hobby. We have much better survival rates today than 10 years ago and vastly better than 20 years ago.

Our knowledge of this hobby grows year by year and the more we learn the more we debunk old myths. If you read the papers written by the experts years ago and listen to what they advocate today you will find that it has changed from what was once thought to be correct.
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  #45  
Old 11/30/2007, 08:57 AM
tydtran tydtran is offline
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It is unlikely that their is any living organism that cannot tolerate some variation in environmental condition. Our fish and corals don't do very well above 90 degrees or below 65 degree F, but swings within this range does no harm. On my aquarium, which houses SPS, LPS, and soft corals, I don't use either chiller or heater. The pumps and lights are sufficient to keep the aquariums from dropping below 76 at night and the tank reaches a maximum of 84 during the day, pretty much irrespective of season since my house is kept at 72 constant. All corals and fish have done fine for going on 2 years now. My only coral loss was a recently added Blastomussa. I think my experience is typical of a lot of people here.

On the flip side, consider the down side of the all the equipment used to keep temperature constant. Heater malfunctions can destroy your whole tank. Chillers are expensive, exhaust waste heat into your room, and waster electricity.

So to sum it up, take steps to insure that your temp doesn't get to high or too low ( pretty easy), and don't waste time, money or energy worrying about maitaining constant temperature.
 

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