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  #1  
Old 01/08/2008, 11:44 PM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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180 gallon tank build

Finally, after many, many months of waiting, I am going to start preparing for my 180. Now I understand why experienced reefers with large systems tell others to be patient. It takes patients to finally get to the point of starting a large reef!!!

My plans as of now are to get the stand finished. Ajoe110 is building it for me. He has been more than helpful with the planning of it. His experience in carpentry has been very much appreciated and he has guided me towards the final product that I will end up with. I will post some picture of it soon.

After I get the tank and stand set up, I will plumb the tank into the basement. The tank is a standard 72x24x24 with two corner overflows. This will drain into a 120 (48x24x24). One drain will dirrectly feed an ASM G4 skimmer and the other will go through a filter bag holding Po4 remover and Carbon. The skimmer will return through a set of baffels at mid-tank into a refugium. From the refugium section, the water will be pumped into a 25 gallon RDSB. From there, it will overflow into an empty 25 gallon tub and will then be pumped back up to the main display via a MAG 24.

Is it necessary to light the refugium with full spectrum light?? I will have 24inch Orbit lamp with two 65w PCs and I will also have a 36 inch fresh water light. Which one should I go with??

Connected to the empty tub will be a 30g mixing tank. The empty tub will have a release valve that can drain into my basement's floor sump.

Please let me know where I can improve. I am also not certain that the order of my setup will be the most effecient. I still have a lot to take care of, but this is a start.
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  #2  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:01 AM
chrisguy chrisguy is offline
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Sounds like a great plan, I would however recomend that you replace the Mag 24 with a more efficient external pump.
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  #3  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:24 AM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisguy
Sounds like a great plan, I would however recomend that you replace the Mag 24 with a more efficient external pump.
picking your brain.

For what reasons??
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  #4  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:49 AM
fat-tony fat-tony is offline
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effeciency and less heat transfer.
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  #5  
Old 01/09/2008, 07:44 AM
chrisguy chrisguy is offline
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Go to this page and look at the head loss calculator. http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_Aquari...e_supreme.html

A Mag24 at 15 feet which I is about the distance I have with my 180 setup is moving 650 gallons, compared to 2400 at 0 head.

This link is for Sequence pumps: http://www.premiumaquatics.com/seque...rflowcurve.htm

I have a Marlin and at the same distance am getting about 1600 and using the same amount of power. The marlin is an external pump so there is less heat transfered into the system. Now in the winter that heat transfer is not bad, but in the summer, not so good.
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  #6  
Old 01/09/2008, 10:34 AM
KurtsReef KurtsReef is offline
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Re: 180 gallon tank build

Quote:
Originally posted by magdelan
[B]Finally, after many, many months of waiting, I am going to start preparing for my 180. Now I understand why experienced reefers with large systems tell others to be patient. It takes patients to finally get to the point of starting a large reef!!!
Then, at least for me you get to a point and start rethinking some of the design. Already thinking of redoing the basement setup
Quote:
Originally posted by magdelan
[B]
After I get the tank and stand set up, I will plumb the tank into the basement. The tank is a standard 72x24x24 with two corner overflows. This will drain into a 120 (48x24x24). One drain will dirrectly feed an ASM G4 skimmer and the other will go through a filter bag holding Po4 remover and Carbon. The skimmer will return through a set of baffels at mid-tank into a refugium. From the refugium section, the water will be pumped into a 25 gallon RDSB. From there, it will overflow into an empty 25 gallon tub and will then be pumped back up to the main display via a MAG 24.
Using overflow to run things is a great idea and energy saver, one of the things I need to change my basement setup to incorporate...less powerheads/pumps.
Quote:
Originally posted by magdelan
[B]
Is it necessary to light the refugium with full spectrum light?? I will have 24inch Orbit lamp with two 65w PCs and I will also have a 36 inch fresh water light. Which one should I go with??
My actual refugium currently has a 96w actenic light...because I had it already, the other portion of refugium/sump has 12k MH 400w on it. The 400 is too much but I want to be able to use it for coral prop....so depends on what the use is. If your just wanting to grow macro algae then something in the whiter spectrum I think helps it grow more.
Quote:
Originally posted by magdelan

Connected to the empty tub will be a 30g mixing tank. The empty tub will have a release valve that can drain into my basement's floor sump.

Please let me know where I can improve. I am also not certain that the order my setup will be the most effecient. I still have a lot to take care of, but this is a start.
SHelinski has changed his set up a bit by building a stand about a foot or 18" high and has his sump sitting on it. That gives him less head to worry about and he said the difference in return flow was huge with this change. It also gets rid of the huge heat sink in the winter time of the basement floor...another thing I plan on incorporating when I make some changes to the cellar set up this summer.
  #7  
Old 01/09/2008, 10:37 AM
KurtsReef KurtsReef is offline
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Sorry about all the "yelling" not sure why things that are not your quotes are bolded.
  #8  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:10 AM
SkiFletch SkiFletch is offline
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Sounds like you've got your filtration down which is great. I agree with the others that return pump and thermal concerns should be your focus here. Mt question to you would be how much trouble do you have keeping your 30g cool in the summer? Cause if you struggle with that one, you're gonna really suffer with the larger tank. Big tanks have a lower ratio of surface area to volume and thus evaporative and convective coling is more difficult.
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  #9  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:25 PM
Capt_Cully Capt_Cully is offline
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Hey man, glad to see you're finally getting the ball rolling. We've been hearing about it for a long time. I'm on the side of the others. I use a hammerhead in my basement set up. I think it's a little overkill, but I think the mag will cause heat issues in summer, as well as not provide the greatest lift and flow. And like Fletch said once you get that much water hot it's tough to cool it down.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Don't for get the pics!!!!
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  #10  
Old 01/09/2008, 12:27 PM
Haffs09 Haffs09 is offline
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Mike, I hear you about patience! I started my build thread last February and since then...have sold that tank! I do have something else up my sleeve, but won't start another thread until I actually have pictures of progress.

As far as the pumps, I agree with ChrisGuy...you might want to look at the sequence line of pumps. You need to know you two main things 1. What is your desired flowrate at your display tank or other tanks and 2. Pressure loss throughout the system.

Then you can take a look at the pump curves and figure out which one is the most efficient for you. If you take 15feet as your head loss, the barracuda will give you approx 1750gph at approx 180W. This blows the mag24 out of the water in terms of efficiency.
  #11  
Old 01/09/2008, 08:18 PM
Gary Majchrzak Gary Majchrzak is offline
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I agree with the others- don't use a Magdrive for your mains.
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  #12  
Old 01/09/2008, 10:48 PM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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First, I will start with some pictures of the stand being built.













Quote:
Originally posted by KurtsReef
Sorry about all the "yelling" not sure why things that are not your quotes are bolded.
No worries... I wouldn't have even noticed.

Quote:
Originally posted by SkiFletch
My question to you would be how much trouble do you have keeping your 30g cool in the summer?
I don't have any trouble keeping it cool. It stays at a comfortable 78 degrees all year round. I have central air for the summers.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisguy
I have a Marlin and at the same distance am getting about 1600 and using the same amount of power. The marlin is an external pump so there is less heat transfered into the system. Now in the winter that heat transfer is not bad, but in the summer, not so good.
I will look in to that and more than likely change my pump from the MAG 24 to either a marlin or a baracuda. I may or may not set the 120 sump on a stand of some sort. Possibly some cinder blocks with a plywood base that I already have. As pointed out, this will significantly cut down on head presure.

How much flow should I be looking to get here?? What is a good turn over rate? I believe that I have heard that 15-30 is good for a mixed reef.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Cully, rock on.
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  #13  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:30 PM
thriceanangel thriceanangel is offline
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The sequence pumps are ideal for closed loops, but does anyone think that he could do better for a pressure application carrying head? But definitely NOT the mag... Anything over MAG 18 isn't a great choice, and they are power hungry too.

Can you draw a diagram of what you're planning, might be easier to picture.
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  #14  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:48 PM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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This is something that I drew the other night. It does not show the 30g mixing tank that will be added to the setup after I transfer it's contents to the 180. Also, water will be pumped from the refugium by a mj1200 to a rdsb and the overflow back to an empty 25g tub.

Visualize the changes.

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  #15  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:55 PM
SkiFletch SkiFletch is offline
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Actually, most sequence pumps are designed for head pressure over flowrate, most notably the Barracuda, Marlin, and Hammerhead models. Its the Dart that's designed for high-flow, low-head

Magdelan, it's tough to say wether the sump should or should not be on the floor. Having central air is great in the summer, but remember, this tank is 6 times the size of your 30g... Gonna have lots more evaporation going out there, making the room more humid, and makin the air conditioner work harder. That means more energy... Had you a cool basement floor to lay the sump on, you could get some nice cooling that way to lessen the need for evap and lower energy requirements. Of course in the winter, this is a double edged sword though as the freezing basement floor is not a great idea.

What would be really cool is if you could prop the sump off the ground and in the summertime, get a long length of 1/2" flex tubing (say 50'), and toss that coil on the ground, pump water through it and back with like a maxijet and get a little of the best of both worlds
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  #16  
Old 01/09/2008, 11:59 PM
SkiFletch SkiFletch is offline
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Ok whoa, just saw that pic. Alarm bells goin off here! Daisy chainin that many open-topped tanks is a recepie for disaster. Better to have the 120 your main sump, and all other ancillary tanks (refugium, RDSB, topoff, etc) just be above it and have their own drains supplying it. Make sense? Basically what Cully or Chrisguy have done with theirs
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  #17  
Old 01/10/2008, 12:06 AM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by SkiFletch
What would be really cool is if you could prop the sump off the ground and in the summertime, get a long length of 1/2" flex tubing (say 50'), and toss that coil on the ground, pump water through it and back with like a maxijet and get a little of the best of both worlds
That's a hell of an idea!!! That very concept it how many soda taps and beer taps are cooled. The idea is to keep the liquid at room temperature while a long coil or tube takes the liquid through a cooling system. The result is a cold beverage.

Essentially, one could use this concept while utilizing a small dorm room type refrigerator. Run the tubing through the fridge and back to the system.

Something to considder
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  #18  
Old 01/10/2008, 12:26 AM
SkiFletch SkiFletch is offline
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Latent cooling from the earth is still cheaper
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  #19  
Old 01/10/2008, 08:15 AM
chrisguy chrisguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by magdelan
Essentially, one could use this concept while utilizing a small dorm room type refrigerator. Run the tubing through the fridge and back to the system.
I have no personal experience with this but many in the DIY forum have tried this method and found it just does not work.

I second what Mike stated, you do not want smaller open top containers below the 120. If/when you turn off your return pump the water level in all of the containers will go up and if not done right, the "bins" will overflow. Same potential issue with an auto top off failure.

As Mike said, put the "bins" higher and have the 120 as the lowest tank and put your return off of that.
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  #20  
Old 01/10/2008, 11:49 AM
rjrobert rjrobert is offline
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Biggest issue I have with that design is if the power goes out and the water backflows it is going to backflow to the lowest point. In your case it would be a small bucket which would probably overflow. Just IMO Good Luck
  #21  
Old 01/10/2008, 10:38 PM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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I agree and understand everyone's concern with this setup. I will revise it and post my revision when I am through.

Excellent advise here... thank you all!!!!

Here is the stand with three of it's doors finished.

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  #22  
Old 01/10/2008, 10:59 PM
Gary Majchrzak Gary Majchrzak is offline
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  #23  
Old 01/10/2008, 11:39 PM
magdelan magdelan is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
Ajoe110 does nice woodwork
Absolutely incredible... his professionalism has been more than I expected.

Ajoe110
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  #24  
Old 01/10/2008, 11:48 PM
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Great progress mike! I'm glad things settled enough for you to get started... I'm thinking of combining my 3 tanks together into one big unit somehow so I can share the Ca Reactor to help bring the other systems up to snuff.

Dude, I love your cabinet!
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  #25  
Old 01/11/2008, 09:29 AM
jstraka1 jstraka1 is offline
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Nice cabinet!!!! what color stain are you considering? Great progress so far on the whole setup! I also agree with the others on the pump, external is the way to go. Have you considered plumbing in another tank, say 55 gallon or so, for the refugium. This leaves much more room in the sump for all the other equipment.
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