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  #26  
Old 01/23/2007, 02:51 PM
barbra barbra is offline
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Has anybody tried any DIY LED stuff, or looke dinto it at all. The lights that are used are these kind I think:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...rticleID=12047

There is a source here maybe?
http://www.luxeonstar.com/sub_catego...0&link_str=330

I am not a lighting guru, having successfully avoided that until lately, but I will happily tag along on that DIY train, it seems worth it. Can it be done at home?
  #27  
Old 01/23/2007, 03:02 PM
LobsterOfJustice LobsterOfJustice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by demos10
pfo brought a solaris to the mtrc frag swap this weekend.They brought a par meter with them.I could place my hands on the bulbs.No heat.We took the par meter and placed it just under the surface of the water and it was in the 370's. We then took the meter over to a 250mh and it was 370 at the bulb and already in the 250's before even under the surface of the water.I'm sold on them.Just need to find the money now
Did they provide the MH setup? Apparently they have been comparing it with a shielded, 20K XM... probably the lowest par 250 setup possible.

And I'm tired of everyone saying you need a chiller with MH. Buy a $5.00 fan.
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  #28  
Old 01/23/2007, 03:12 PM
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nice thread . . . and good work robert!
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  #29  
Old 01/23/2007, 03:35 PM
Loralie Loralie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Lambert
Nice to hear from someone who has seen it in action. Is your friend keeping any SPS with the fixture?
yes, but I want to check for long term growth and color. His Zoos have done very well. He has the 3ft and 6ft light.
  #30  
Old 01/23/2007, 03:44 PM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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Whether you need a chiller or not. The "fear" of heat is always an issue for half of the country. Even if you run a fan. Your water tempature is still rising at the surface, thus causing more evaporation...so even if you don't NEED a chiller, you should be able to find a benefit from LED thru less H20 evaporation into your home...which causes your AC to run more and your home to get mold infestation...
  #31  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:06 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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At the very least a chiller would run less often, which I would think would save plenty, especially on a large tank.
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  #32  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:15 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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i guess I just don't see how spending 3k on a light would save money, I have 3 mh's and 3 t5's total cost of about $1000 = savings of 2k plus more light output.

b/f you give me all these calculations telling me that I would save money over a 10 year period...has anyone ever heard of the time value of money?
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  #33  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:23 PM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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Haha! Great point jag1979. I'm not really talking about saving money. It's like buying a 60 inch plasma....to some a 42 inch works just fine for most people's home, but you talk about it because it's new/cool....and one day will be affordable. We don't buy Rolex's because they are the best for the money (a quartz watch from wal-mart keeps better time)....this isn't a cheap hobby, and those who think it is are in for a shock/disappointment. I haven't brought up cost advantages nor light advantages...only heat and noise.
  #34  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:30 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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I think that LED lights are probably going to take over sometime in the future. But I agree w/ you, at least for right now its not about saving money w/ these things, its about something new and cool. If I had the money and wanted a lps/softy tank i would get them.
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  #35  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:35 PM
Randall_James Randall_James is offline
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I did a cost analysis on the LED system and came up with very similar numbers about 3 months ago. The savings was pretty significant all the same. The $150 per year on bulbs alone covered the additional cost of the LED unit itself.

I also figured around $9 per month in savings on the chiller and the costs associated with running it (depreciation, power to run chiller, cost of AC to remove the added load of chiller from inside home).

My biggest beef is the warranty, if the unit is "good" for 10 years, then warranty it for 2/3rds of it. I would not buy an item that is expected to operate for such a long time with only a 12 or 24 month warranty.

Now if they show a bit more confidence in their product, then I might too
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  #36  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:44 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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"I did a cost analysis on the LED system and came up with very similar numbers about 3 months ago. The savings was pretty significant all the same. The $150 per year on bulbs alone covered the additional cost of the LED unit itself."

what rate of return did you use in calculating the loss due to the time value of money?

also how much do the LED lights cost to replace in 5 years or so (assuming you would not wait 10 years for the light output to drop by 30%)
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  #37  
Old 01/23/2007, 04:48 PM
dwculp dwculp is offline
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LED systems will only get better and better. Researchers are constantly improving LED technology and LEDs with a lumens per watt rating that blows MH lights out of the watter are in the near future.

As LED lighting gets adopted by more people the price will begin to drop, though I think it is a good 3-4 years before LED lights are common.
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  #38  
Old 01/23/2007, 05:31 PM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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I agree. I would think too that it'll only be a few years before LED lighting becomes common place in homes as well....
  #39  
Old 01/23/2007, 05:31 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dwculp
LED systems will only get better and better. Researchers are constantly improving LED technology and LEDs with a lumens per watt rating that blows MH lights out of the watter are in the near future.

As LED lighting gets adopted by more people the price will begin to drop, though I think it is a good 3-4 years before LED lights are common.
I couldn't agree more! When I was in College (years ago) a high quality calculator ran about $600. (In 1974 Dollars no less).

One of the big things the technology has going for it is that LED product development will occur to service markets that are much much larger than Aquaria. Aquaria may well be the beneficiary of R&D efforts for other uses. Here is a clip from an article I recently read:

"Until the last decade, LEDs could only produce green, red, and yellow light, which limited their use. Then came blue LEDs, which have since been altered to emit white light with a light-blue hue.

LEDs produce twice as much light as a regular 60 watt bulb and burn for over 50,000 hours. The Department of Energy estimates LED lighting could reduce U.S. energy consumption for lighting by 29 percent by 2025. LEDs don't emit heat, so they're also more energy efficient. And they're much harder to break.

Other scientists have said they expect LEDs to eventually replace standard incandescent bulbs as well as fluorescent and sodium vapor lights.

If the new process can be developed into commercial production, light won't come just from newfangled bulbs. Quantum dot mixtures could be painted on just about anything and electrically excited to produce a rainbow of colors, including white.

One big question remains: When a brilliant idea pops into your mind in the future, what will appear over your head?"
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  #40  
Old 01/23/2007, 05:51 PM
xbambamx xbambamx is offline
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But the LEDS watts are only like 15? So how can a 15 watt LED compare to a 400 X 2 MH?
  #41  
Old 01/23/2007, 06:01 PM
dwculp dwculp is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by xbambamx
But the LEDS watts are only like 15? So how can a 15 watt LED compare to a 400 X 2 MH?
You use a whole bunch of them!! In addition you have to look at the lumens per watt or actuall efficiency of the light source. LEDs are currently being produced that have a better lumens per watt ratio than MH. In other words that use more of the energy going in to them to produce actual light.
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  #42  
Old 01/23/2007, 06:08 PM
xbambamx xbambamx is offline
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So you base your lighting on lumens and not actual wattage?
  #43  
Old 01/23/2007, 06:12 PM
dwculp dwculp is offline
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Well, lumens per watt. For example, normal incandescent lights have a horrible lumens per watt ratio, most of energy (97+%) goes toward producing heat and not light, where as compact flourescent lighting has a far better lumens per watt rating. 500W of incandescent light is nowehere near as illuminating as 500W of PC lights.

You have to look at the total wattage and the efficiency of the light.
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  #44  
Old 01/23/2007, 06:59 PM
robertifly robertifly is offline
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I have a 36" Solaris and I think it is the real deal! Sorry can't say about the coral growth as I don't have any yet, just SW and sand. Still building the setup. My tank is 24x24x36 and yes the shimmer effect is there.
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  #45  
Old 01/23/2007, 08:35 PM
Randall_James Randall_James is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jag1979


what rate of return did you use in calculating the loss due to the time value of money?

also how much do the LED lights cost to replace in 5 years or so (assuming you would not wait 10 years for the light output to drop by 30%)
This is not a relevant question due to the fact that the future value of the unit itself is going to become significantly cheaper. Such as plasma TVs, the unit I have now was 10G only 18 months ago, today that unit is $2000 and has more features and better resolution.

Same applies here, you can not base ROI in anything but current figures. These systems will not come down in cost nearly so fast as we might like because market for these systems is rather limited. However, like every other new technology, it will get cheaper as the cost of the research is adsorbed by increasing sales and thus bringing down the cost per unit in terms of research costs. The cost of running your lights is not going to go down, it will continue to rise with the price of electricity.

In 5 years, the LED clusters may only cost $10 to replace, this would be the same cost factor as LCD monitors have gone through in the last 3-4 years, a $1000 monitor is now $150

Perhaps I should do a SWOT analysis next for them?
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  #46  
Old 01/24/2007, 12:30 AM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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"This is not a relevant question due to the fact that the future value of the unit itself is going to become significantly cheaper"

if you buy a unit for 3k right now it is pretty relevant...not sure I understand what you are talking about. If the future value of the unit itself is going to become significanly cheaper (which I agree it will) then that is another reason that you will not save money by buying one of these. The fact is that you are spending 3k right now for the LED light's or less than 1000 for a mh and whatever combo. If you want to run a cost analysis then you would have to factor in the time value of money or it is useless.
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  #47  
Old 01/24/2007, 02:38 AM
Pez Vela Pez Vela is offline
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I would like to pull the trigger on one of these myself. I think if the technology does improve, and it probably will, the LED lighting units will become cheaper in the future. But it will be a few years for this to happen. And, if that is the case I will simply stockpile my energy savings during this future LED development phase and upgrade my LED unit with one of th newer improved models in a few years. Just as I am thinking of doing now.

In all seriousness, they look like the real deal to me too.
  #48  
Old 01/24/2007, 08:41 AM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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I agree about them looking like the real deal.

Look at the explosion T-5's took once they came to the aquarium trade market. I assume that once the LED price point reach 2K that most all of us will be seriously considering it. 5 years ago a nice MH set up was 2K.

I think it's similar to people who pay more for a hybrid engine. It costs more up front, but you save more in the long run on fuel costs....Personally, i think the cost up front right now doesn't outweigh the long term cost of fuel. However, those people buying hybrid's are pioneering the way of the future and obsorbing the R&D costs for the rest of us.
  #49  
Old 01/24/2007, 10:25 AM
dwculp dwculp is offline
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I agree, it is up to those people who can afford the cutting edge technology and are willing to experiment to buy the fixtures and slowly bring the cost down for the rest of us. It is the same with any technology. I can remember when a 15 inch flat screen LCD monitor would cost you 2K and looked terrible. Now you can get really good models at Wal-Mart for $150.00.

The main thing I am looking forward to with LED ligths is far less heat! I think that combined with the super-long life of LED lights is going to make LED lights extremely attractive in the near future (3-5 years).
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  #50  
Old 01/24/2007, 10:52 AM
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LEDs will absolutely, without a doubt, entirely replace metal halides someday. In fact, they'll replace all lighting systems. The only question is how long it will take.
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