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  #1  
Old 01/23/2007, 09:43 AM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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LED Lighting. The next big thing?

It looks like LED lighting is pushing the envelope of affordability. PFO has brought a product to market, and the reviews seem very positive with the biggest advantages being very low heat emmission and low long-term costs (electrical and bulb replacements. Does anyone have any real experience with a LED lighting arrangement on their reef?
  #2  
Old 01/23/2007, 10:29 AM
Whisperer Whisperer is offline
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I doubt this will take off unless they replicate MH or even compact fluorescent's intensity in terms of coral keeping. Maybe for Fish only tanks. I use LED nightlight to simulate moonlight though (well, actually for it's effect on the tank when all the lights are off, so mesmerizing to look at )
  #3  
Old 01/23/2007, 10:45 AM
ambaratur ambaratur is offline
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I believe that they do replicate MH at this time. I will have to look for the threads but there are a few people who changed out from MH to LED. The problem is the initial cost of the LED is so high.

Also it allows the user to dial in the color of the lights. You can simulate a 10K or 20K look by changing the setting from what I understand.
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  #4  
Old 01/23/2007, 10:51 AM
Randall_James Randall_James is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whisperer
I doubt this will take off unless they replicate MH or even compact fluorescent's intensity in terms of coral keeping.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2
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  #5  
Old 01/23/2007, 10:59 AM
Ursus Ursus is offline
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At this point I think it's still too expensive... but I am cheap!!! I can see this taking a large share of the lighting market eventually though. However, with the large price tag, I don't see it being an overnight switch. Very promising though.
  #6  
Old 01/23/2007, 11:15 AM
Whisperer Whisperer is offline
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I will stick to my MH, proven, tested and relatively affordable.
  #7  
Old 01/23/2007, 11:31 AM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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I also think that in time they will be in widespread use. People need to remember that this technology is in its infancy. There will be improvements. Here is a lengthy thread on the topic.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...placement+cost
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  #8  
Old 01/23/2007, 11:45 AM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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I too see this as the future. PFO sells their 60 inch system for around $3000, which is about how much a full fledged MetalHalide/Chiller system would cost today. The reviews have been great.
  #9  
Old 01/23/2007, 12:02 PM
starmanres starmanres is offline
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Let's do the economics...

LED System 48" - $2,500

Expected Lamp Life - 10 years

Per month cost - $20.83 + Electricity

---------------------------------------------------------------------

MH/VHO/T-5 Cost - ~$700 (10 year comparison $5.83 per month)

Expected Lamp Life - 1 Year

Additional Cost of $250 per year in Bulb Replacement (10 year comparison $20.83 per month)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

40% Electricity Savings LED over MH/VHO/T-5

Current Wattage Example:
2- 250w MH+2- 110w VHO's+2- 55w T-5's = 830w Per Hour or ~6,000 watts per day

6,000 watts x 365 days = 2,190,000 watts per year or 2,190 Killowatt Hours

2,190 Killowatts x .10 per KWH = $219.00 per year in Lighting Costs / 40% savings - $87.60 per year savings in electricity.

$87.60 x 10 years (~life of LED bulbs) = $876.00

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

Over a 10 year period, MH/VHO/T-5 lights will cost [Fixture, bulbs, Electricity] $5,389.20 or $44.91 per month.

Over a 10 year period LED lights will cost [Fixture, Bulbs, Electricity] $3,375.60 or $28.13 per month.

Purchasing an LED fixture over a MH/VHO/T-5 one will be a cost savings of $2,013.60 over 10 years or $16.78 per month.

Plus no ordering bulbs from LFS or online, dramatically less heat for your chiller to offset, less radiation to bleach corals, less noise from canopy fans... - lighting timers, moonlights and dimmers are built into the unit...

Unless I am in error somewhere in my math, I'm thinkin' this LED option has some benefits to be considered...

My .02

Robert
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  #10  
Old 01/23/2007, 12:19 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by starmanres
Let's do the economics...

LED System 48" - $2,500

Expected Lamp Life - 10 years

Per month cost - $20.83 + Electricity

---------------------------------------------------------------------

MH/VHO/T-5 Cost - ~$700 (10 year comparison $5.83 per month)

Expected Lamp Life - 1 Year

Additional Cost of $250 per year in Bulb Replacement (10 year comparison $20.83 per month)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

40% Electricity Savings LED over MH/VHO/T-5

Current Wattage Example:
2- 250w MH+2- 110w VHO's+2- 55w T-5's = 830w Per Hour or ~6,000 watts per day

6,000 watts x 365 days = 2,190,000 watts per year or 2,190 Killowatt Hours

2,190 Killowatts x .10 per KWH = $219.00 per year in Lighting Costs / 40% savings - $87.60 per year savings in electricity.

$87.60 x 10 years (~life of LED bulbs) = $876.00

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

Over a 10 year period, MH/VHO/T-5 lights will cost [Fixture, bulbs, Electricity] $5,389.20 or $44.91 per month.

Over a 10 year period LED lights will cost [Fixture, Bulbs, Electricity] $3,375.60 or $28.13 per month.

Purchasing an LED fixture over a MH/VHO/T-5 one will be a cost savings of $2,013.60 over 10 years or $16.78 per month.

Plus no ordering bulbs from LFS or online, dramatically less heat for your chiller to offset, less radiation to bleach corals, less noise from canopy fans... - lighting timers, moonlights and dimmers are built into the unit...

Unless I am in error somewhere in my math, I'm thinkin' this LED option has some benefits to be considered...

My .02

Robert
I remember reading somewhere that the 50K hour figure referred to the lights losing 30% of their PAR. I think you would want to replace tham quite a bit earlier than 50K hours. (There are also lots of lights to replace).

I still think it will be more cost effective in the future if it isn't already though.
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  #11  
Old 01/23/2007, 12:34 PM
mikeshook mikeshook is offline
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I think Robert is on, but he forgot to add the initiatl cost of a Chiller and the electrical costs involved.
  #12  
Old 01/23/2007, 12:46 PM
starmanres starmanres is offline
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I looked at it that most in the hobby will need to do the electrical work either way... The standard 110 outlet next to the Entertainment center really isn't the correct choice.

I do agree with the Chiller costs though. I am not sure that my tank would not need a chiller with the heat produced by my pumps anyway, but I know my MH's do not help the situation.

During the summer months, my tank runs 84-86 degrees without a chiller. My temp inside the hood with all the lights on is 105 degrees with the canopy fans on - 180 degrees without!

I would think that 30-40% of the people that had to purchase a chiller because their temps ran too high, could have gotten by without one if they had LED lighting.

What I couldn't calculate was the extra heat that my home air conditioner has to offset because of the lighting heat piped into the room. I tried to be conservative with the numbers I came up with.

Robert
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  #13  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:08 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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I don't need a chiller w/ my mh's. Also the LED allegedly has the same light output as a 250 watt 20k xm bulb which doesnt have that much par. I guess it would be ok for lps and softies but not for sps/clams.
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  #14  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:20 PM
starmanres starmanres is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jag1979
I don't need a chiller w/ my mh's. Also the LED allegedly has the same light output as a 250 watt 20k xm bulb which doesnt have that much par. I guess it would be ok for lps and softies but not for sps/clams.
Actually, from the review, each 12" section has the output of one 250w 20k XM bulb... So if you had 48" fixture, that would be the same output a three 250w XM bulbs or 750w of light at 375w of electricity... I would think even clams might need sunglasses for that amount of watts per gallon. The fixture controller allows you to set how much light and which colors you wish to use... So if you wanted a 15k color spectrum, you just adjust the LEDs to provide that.

I would just like to wait to see what the bulb replacement options are as Hello Lights and some of the lower cost resellers get into the game.

Robert
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  #15  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:23 PM
Loralie Loralie is offline
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I saw the Solaris light that PFO has put out in action. Beautiful unit. It has kept softies and LPS great, but I want to see longterm growth before I rush out to buy one.. The unit generates almost no heat, which as we all know is a major benefit. Also the bulb life is a big attraction as well. On my 125 I run 2- 250w 15K halides, 4-6' Vho lights. I replace those every 8+ months. It costs roughly $256+ (this cost dosen't reflect replacement of fuge lightling). If you factor in the chiller cost, coupled with the electricity cost for operating both the lights and the chiller....it soon starts to add up! I am gonna watch the results that my friend gets with his, and see what the future holds.
  #16  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:25 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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its not the amount of watts or light it is the intensity that clams and sps need you can line up as many 20k xm bulbs in a row that you want and the intensity will not go any higher
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  #17  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:26 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by starmanres
Actually, from the review, each 12" section has the output of one 250w 20k XM bulb... So if you had 48" fixture, that would be the same output a three 250w XM bulbs or 750w of light at 375w of electricity... I would think even clams might need sunglasses for that amount of watts per gallon. The fixture controller allows you to set how much light and which colors you wish to use... So if you wanted a 15k color spectrum, you just adjust the LEDs to provide that.

I would just like to wait to see what the bulb replacement options are as Hello Lights and some of the lower cost resellers get into the game.

Robert
That's the way I read it also. Would be interesting to see some plotted comparisons in the future.
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  #18  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:41 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Loralie
I saw the Solaris light that PFO has put out in action. Beautiful unit. It has kept softies and LPS great, but I want to see longterm growth before I rush out to buy one.. The unit generates almost no heat, which as we all know is a major benefit. Also the bulb life is a big attraction as well. On my 125 I run 2- 250w 15K halides, 4-6' Vho lights. I replace those every 8+ months. It costs roughly $256+ (this cost dosen't reflect replacement of fuge lightling). If you factor in the chiller cost, coupled with the electricity cost for operating both the lights and the chiller....it soon starts to add up! I am gonna watch the results that my friend gets with his, and see what the future holds.
Nice to hear from someone who has seen it in action. Is your friend keeping any SPS with the fixture?
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  #19  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:41 PM
starmanres starmanres is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jag1979
its not the amount of watts or light it is the intensity that clams and sps need you can line up as many 20k xm bulbs in a row that you want and the intensity will not go any higher
Not to hijack this thread, but maybe I am confused on lighting. What I have always read is that most measure the watts per gallon to determine if you have enough to meet the needs of the animals.

Fish Only tanks need between 2-4 watts per gallon.

Softies and LPS need 3-5 watts per gallon.

SPS/Clams need 6-8 watts per gallon.

If I lined up 3 250w MH over a 100 gallon tank, this would provide approx 7.5 watts per gallon. Understanding that the intensity of the light would hinge on the placement and depth of the tank... Unless you have a waterproof light meter measuring lumens per that spot... I don't know how the standard hobbyist would measure it...

What is your understanding on how this is measured?

Robert
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  #20  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:43 PM
rooroo rooroo is offline
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PAR is from my understanding the best way to determine if you have enough lighting. For that you have to buy a PAR meter. From what I've read the PAR of LEDs is comporable to MHs.
  #21  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:45 PM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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I'll wait till its 1/4 of the price.
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  #22  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:45 PM
Craig Lambert Craig Lambert is offline
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It's not a great measure to use Robert. I have a 6 bulb configuration of VHO totalling 630 watts over a 75G, which is 8.4 watts per gallon. Two 250 watt MH bulbs over the same tank would provide 6.6 watts per gallon, but would be stronger lighting than mine. Same with t-5 comparred to mine.
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  #23  
Old 01/23/2007, 01:46 PM
jag1979 jag1979 is offline
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watts per gallon was the old rule, most people don't use that anymore

its really about matching the correct intensity to each animal. PAR is what it is all about. As far as measuring it let people like Sanjay and Grimm do that. Then use their measurements to decide what you need.
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  #24  
Old 01/23/2007, 02:04 PM
starmanres starmanres is offline
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I will do some research on PAR. If this has become the new standard in measuring the needs of the animals, I would think that most of the online places would change their coral lighting needs to a PAR standard over the current "Intense, Moderate, Low" descriptions they provide now.

I couldn't find a PAR meter on any of the normal Fish Supply places either....

The one I did find was $200.

The hobby has some work to do through education and equipment to make it useful and measurable.

Robert
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  #25  
Old 01/23/2007, 02:47 PM
demos10 demos10 is offline
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pfo brought a solaris to the mtrc frag swap this weekend.They brought a par meter with them.I could place my hands on the bulbs.No heat.We took the par meter and placed it just under the surface of the water and it was in the 370's. We then took the meter over to a 250mh and it was 370 at the bulb and already in the 250's before even under the surface of the water.I'm sold on them.Just need to find the money now
 

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