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Old 02/12/2015, 11:28 AM   #6501
Floyd R Turbo
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Hard to say, I've never seen them used, but it might. Maybe do your CFL setup and order one of those to see. The heat sink on the LED lamp might push the lit-up part out of the center-point of the dome, so you lose the efficiency of the reflector a bit when that happens.


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Old 02/12/2015, 11:32 AM   #6502
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Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
Hard to say, I've never seen them used, but it might. Maybe do your CFL setup and order one of those to see. The heat sink on the LED lamp might push the lit-up part out of the center-point of the dome, so you lose the efficiency of the reflector a bit when that happens.
True, but if I extend the reflectors with foil or cut up cans, it may sink the LED back down inside the rim of the now extended dome.
I'm liking the idea more and more of doing CFL's first, and then transitioning to LED's on one side, seeing how it does and if it works going to the other side.


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Old 02/12/2015, 05:28 PM   #6503
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Ive been using CFLs and am am having great results so far.


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Current Tank Info: 225 mixed w/ 225 sump 550 lbs live rock,3x MarinePure ceramic blocks,Skimz SM201,Geo 618 CR,Vectra L1,DOS automatic water changes,3x 250w MH w/ 4x actinic T5,All ran by Apex thru Fusion.--57 community tank w/ OR T-247,120 nem tank.
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Old 02/12/2015, 09:38 PM   #6504
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I have a very small feeding
But how much rock do you have? Each 50 pounds of problem rock (I think you said you had nuisance algae on them) counts for an extra 1 cube a day.


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Old 02/13/2015, 06:27 AM   #6505
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But how much rock do you have? Each 50 pounds of problem rock (I think you said you had nuisance algae on them) counts for an extra 1 cube a day.
I didn't know that. I've got like 120-135lb of rock in my 75 (got it for a really good price which is why I have so much). That might be a contributing factor to my problem algae as well.


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Old 02/13/2015, 12:45 PM   #6506
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Floyd, what do you think about 2 of these used with the 10.5 inch reflectors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301373710943...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I was looking at the 54 watt versions as they'd be shorter than the 69w and may fit into the reflector better, but still be 3w per LED. More importantly they're in stock and cheaper than the 69w.

I still haven't caught up completely on this thread, but I'm getting to the point where everyone is starting to transition over to LED's so I'm think I may want to go that way from the beginning now.

Oh, and make my screen 8x8 as well.



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Old 02/14/2015, 11:44 PM   #6507
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I think that 54W one looks pretty good. Without seeing one I would say that if you were looking at a CFL "equivalent" wattage, you would have to find a CFL that is over 150W (actual, not equivalent) to compare to that one.

I'd be interested to see how that performs in a dome reflector or a DIY one. Looks very promising.


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Old 02/15/2015, 06:15 AM   #6508
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I would also be interested in how those perform. Keep us posted if you get them.


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Current Tank Info: 225 mixed w/ 225 sump 550 lbs live rock,3x MarinePure ceramic blocks,Skimz SM201,Geo 618 CR,Vectra L1,DOS automatic water changes,3x 250w MH w/ 4x actinic T5,All ran by Apex thru Fusion.--57 community tank w/ OR T-247,120 nem tank.
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Old 02/16/2015, 09:22 AM   #6509
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I think that 54W one looks pretty good. Without seeing one I would say that if you were looking at a CFL "equivalent" wattage, you would have to find a CFL that is over 150W (actual, not equivalent) to compare to that one.

I'd be interested to see how that performs in a dome reflector or a DIY one. Looks very promising.
Well the 69w just became available (along with the 54W). Would the 69w be overkill? Obviously I don't want to fry the algae. Again, my knowledge of lighting is minuscule. I know for display tanks bigger, brighter, and more powerful is always better, but algae scrubbers are different.

I plan to illuminate the scrubber from both sides (if I didn't mention that before).


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Old 02/16/2015, 09:41 AM   #6510
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I think the 54w will fit inside the dome lamp better that I'm planning on getting. That is one advantage I see to going slightly smaller.


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Old 02/16/2015, 11:22 AM   #6511
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I think the 69W one would be pushing it a bit, I'm leery about the power put put by that 54W even.

The thing about LED, and why you need less out of an LED growth lamp is the spectrum output is more specific. So it's easy to over-light with LED, mainly on a brand new screen. After a screen is mature, if you have enough bioload to provide it ample nutrients, the high output can work to your advantage as you get get some really good growth, more than CFLs. But if you have a mature screen and low nutrients and you over light it, this can be a detriment to the screen.

To compensate for various scenarios, you can use a much shorter photoperiod and split it up. So let's say you are in danger of over-lighting because you have relatively low overall nutrients - a long and strong photoperiod may overwhelm the screen, but several short high-power bursts of light may not overwhelm it. These kinds of techniques can be used to get good growth under LEDs. CFLs, generally, you run them in one continuous photoperiod because the intensity just isn't normall there like it can be with LEDs.


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Old 02/16/2015, 11:36 AM   #6512
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I think the 69W one would be pushing it a bit, I'm leery about the power put put by that 54W even.

The thing about LED, and why you need less out of an LED growth lamp is the spectrum output is more specific. So it's easy to over-light with LED, mainly on a brand new screen. After a screen is mature, if you have enough bioload to provide it ample nutrients, the high output can work to your advantage as you get get some really good growth, more than CFLs. But if you have a mature screen and low nutrients and you over light it, this can be a detriment to the screen.

To compensate for various scenarios, you can use a much shorter photoperiod and split it up. So let's say you are in danger of over-lighting because you have relatively low overall nutrients - a long and strong photoperiod may overwhelm the screen, but several short high-power bursts of light may not overwhelm it. These kinds of techniques can be used to get good growth under LEDs. CFLs, generally, you run them in one continuous photoperiod because the intensity just isn't normall there like it can be with LEDs.
Oh so like a 4 hour on 4 hour off kind of thing?

I figure I'll start out with a 9 hour lighting period and tweek it from there.


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Old 02/16/2015, 12:29 PM   #6513
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With that light, I would say you are safe to start with a 9 hour solid photoperiod but if you don't get any signs of initial growth after 10 days, I would split it up into 4 on 1 off 4 on 15 off.

Initial growth should be a light brown coating that is easily swiped off with the palm of your hand, and maybe a few sprigs of green here and there. If the screen is stark white and shows no signs of growth, that's too much light.

I think since the LEDs on that lamp face sideways this will cut down on the tendency for LEDs to cause this photosaturation effect. You lose a bit of efficiency but the lamp is over the top to begin with, so that might just balance out.

I might get a hold of one of these myself.


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Old 02/16/2015, 12:44 PM   #6514
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With that light, I would say you are safe to start with a 9 hour solid photoperiod but if you don't get any signs of initial growth after 10 days, I would split it up into 4 on 1 off 4 on 15 off.

Initial growth should be a light brown coating that is easily swiped off with the palm of your hand, and maybe a few sprigs of green here and there. If the screen is stark white and shows no signs of growth, that's too much light.

I think since the LEDs on that lamp face sideways this will cut down on the tendency for LEDs to cause this photosaturation effect. You lose a bit of efficiency but the lamp is over the top to begin with, so that might just balance out.

I might get a hold of one of these myself.
lol...lemme buy my 2 first.


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Old 02/16/2015, 01:09 PM   #6515
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Does an 8x8 screen sound adequate with my limited feeding of less than 1 cube a day (I do want to allow for growth over time)? I've got a hair algae outbreak so I'm sure some nutrients are leaching out of the live rock and what not since the tank is over 5 years old.


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Old 02/16/2015, 01:25 PM   #6516
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well, according to the feeding guideline, 8x8 = 64, 64/12 = 5.3 cubes/day so that's 5x oversized. You can have a screen that is oversized but you just need to be aware of that and compensate, in this case, if your nutrients are in check but you have tank algae, you could photosaturate the screen if you run the lights for 9 hrs/day.

If your N and P are low, I would start off with more like 4 or 6 hours per day in 2 hour chunks with 30-60 minutes in between (with the 54W LED bulb).


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Old 02/16/2015, 01:38 PM   #6517
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well, according to the feeding guideline, 8x8 = 64, 64/12 = 5.3 cubes/day so that's 5x oversized. You can have a screen that is oversized but you just need to be aware of that and compensate, in this case, if your nutrients are in check but you have tank algae, you could photosaturate the screen if you run the lights for 9 hrs/day.

If your N and P are low, I would start off with more like 4 or 6 hours per day in 2 hour chunks with 30-60 minutes in between (with the 54W LED bulb).
Yeah, last time I checked all my levels were 0 (but still had algae problems).

Maybe I'll do 5 on 45 off 5 on 14 off and see how that goes.

With my feeding regiment I figured getting a 2x2 screen would be kind of ridiculous...lol


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Old 02/16/2015, 07:32 PM   #6518
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Yes They are big and don't have the best shape. There is also the splashing sound. With another design you can simply make up for efficiency per square inch by increasing the square inches.

This is a re-post from another thread on RC. I have held off on posting this for a long time. I didn't want to get in the way of the general thrust of information but some people will find it interesting.

PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO BUILD ONE OF THESE FROM MY PLANS!

Some fine points of the design were changed after the CAD work was completed, during construction.

THESE PLANS ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY!
You would have to have fabrication knowlege, skills and the proper equipment.



These are some of the ATS’s that Dr. Adey suggested that worked best because of the agitation and turbulence that they produce. Good turbulence increases effectiveness by 50% and greatly reduces clumping which can cause yellowing at the root and die off. Most were about 4 by 8 feet in size and had 1000 watt metal halides

This is my first version. It worked very well but I moved on to the version 2 below.

This is a 3-D PDF of version one. It is NOT to scale but you can rotate it around to see how I laid it out.

Note: Open these in a session of Abode Reader for full features. Click on the link and it will open in your web browser but you will not be able to rotate the model. "Save As" it to your Desk Top or somewhere you can find it. If you already have Adobe Reader then you can open it right away. If you don't have it, go to the Adobe web site and down load it for free. Be sure to look at the other pages that are attached for more information(in the left dark grey margin). Turning the background color to gray will make it easier to see. There is a quickly drawing in version two but you can also go to >Tools>Analysis>Measure to get sizes.


http://asaherring.com/reef/hardware/...etTriangle.pdf



This is a 3-D PDF of version 2.



http://asaherring.com/reef/hardware/DumpBucket.pdf

By the way, my Avatar is a rendering of the splash from my dump bucket when it was mounted right on top of my 180 gallon tank.
Hi. Really find your dump bucket concepts interesting. IYO, is there a minimum size that one has to be built to be effective? Once balanced and working, does the weight of the algae mat throw off the balance?

I am new to the form, so excuse me if i am somehow out of order - not sure how best to inquire about a post well in the past.

thanks ...John


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Old 02/18/2015, 03:11 PM   #6519
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So I cleaned the screen on the 12th and cleaned it again today.

Heres what it looked like.


And heres there amount I harvested.


As you can see Im getting only brown at the moment. Granted its only been 3 weeks but I'm wondering if I should be seeing some green growth.

I'm currently running my CFLs 18/6 on/off


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"I have learned all kinds of things from my many mistakes. The one thing I never learn is to stop making them." --Nicomo Cosca.

Current Tank Info: 225 mixed w/ 225 sump 550 lbs live rock,3x MarinePure ceramic blocks,Skimz SM201,Geo 618 CR,Vectra L1,DOS automatic water changes,3x 250w MH w/ 4x actinic T5,All ran by Apex thru Fusion.--57 community tank w/ OR T-247,120 nem tank.
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Old 02/18/2015, 07:36 PM   #6520
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Did you squeeze it really hard to get all the moisture out? Sometime when you do that, it lightens up a bit. To me that looks like is has some level of consistency, so it's definitely not slime or diatoms/dinos type of growth. I would say it is probably extremely dark green, which is typically a sign of very high nutrients.

The flipside is that you are not getting bare spots on your screen, which means that your light is not too intense - so you can move them a little bit closer if that's possible, and I might even consider adding 2 hours to the photoperiod for now.


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Old 02/18/2015, 09:34 PM   #6521
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Dark growth needs stronger/more light, just like a dark room does.


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Old 02/19/2015, 03:03 AM   #6522
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Did you squeeze it really hard to get all the moisture out? Sometime when you do that, it lightens up a bit. To me that looks like is has some level of consistency, so it's definitely not slime or diatoms/dinos type of growth. I would say it is probably extremely dark green, which is typically a sign of very high nutrients.

The flipside is that you are not getting bare spots on your screen, which means that your light is not too intense - so you can move them a little bit closer if that's possible, and I might even consider adding 2 hours to the photoperiod for now.
Thanks Floyd. My No3 is a consistent 35 atm,my Po4 is 0-0.25

I'll increase my photoperiod since theres not really a way to move my lights closer. The reflectors are already up against the splash guard.


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"I have learned all kinds of things from my many mistakes. The one thing I never learn is to stop making them." --Nicomo Cosca.

Current Tank Info: 225 mixed w/ 225 sump 550 lbs live rock,3x MarinePure ceramic blocks,Skimz SM201,Geo 618 CR,Vectra L1,DOS automatic water changes,3x 250w MH w/ 4x actinic T5,All ran by Apex thru Fusion.--57 community tank w/ OR T-247,120 nem tank.
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Old 02/21/2015, 01:27 PM   #6523
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My scubber 2 weeks later

This is my scrubber after 2 weeks. I am finally getting a few clumps of green hair algae but mostly brown everywhere else. Should I wait till the hair algae gets more dense and spreads to the rest of the screen or scrape now? I'm using a 23 cfl 2700k on each side about 4" from screen and screen is 7" wide 10" tall maxi-jet 1200 for flow. Running lights 18/6 schedule. I have already seen my nitrates go from 40 to about 10. Also is it bad for about an inch or so of the screen to be submerged in water? I do this for salt creep/splashing/bubbles.







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Old 02/21/2015, 02:13 PM   #6524
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This is my scrubber after 2 weeks. I am finally getting a few clumps of green hair algae but mostly brown everywhere else. Should I wait till the hair algae gets more dense and spreads to the rest of the screen or scrape now? I'm using a 23 cfl 2700k on each side about 4" from screen and screen is 7" wide 10" tall maxi-jet 1200 for flow. Running lights 18/6 schedule. I have already seen my nitrates go from 40 to about 10. Also is it bad for about an inch or so of the screen to be submerged in water? I do this for salt creep/splashing/bubbles.
Submerging the screen is recommended for your type of setup so no problem there

Are your lights pulled back for the pic? They look farther than 4" away so I'm guessing yes.

the MJ1200 has horrible head loss characteristics so for a 7" screen you would want about 250 GPH of flow ideally, but the MJ1200 only puts out about 300 at zero head, probably 150-175 at best is what you are getting. And that's not horrible, the fact is that it's working for you. Just be aware that your screen's overall filtration capacity is lower because of the low flow, and you might be prone to some over-lighting because flow and lighting kind of go hand-in-hand. If you have too little flow and not enough light, you get yellow growth.

But so far, it looks really good. That kind of growth in 2 weeks is promising so at this point I wouldn't change much, if you have a bigger pump handy you might try that but it's not critical at this point. The maturing stage is all about getting a base of growth and as long as you have decent flow and decent light, you should get that (and you are)

Do take the screen out and swipe the palm of your hand across it and run it under tap water (room temp, low flow) and that's all for a cleaning at this point. Then let it grow for at least 10 days if not 14.


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Old 02/22/2015, 06:01 AM   #6525
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Thanks for the quick and detailed reply turbo. I figured I was was pushing the limits with my mj1200 but I had it laying around. I am getting a pretty thick even wall of water on my screen though. I guess I'll see what happens. Yes I did pull the lights back for the pic. Now I have a problem with snails finding their way up the screen. Little buggers have left a path of clean screen where they've been.


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