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Old 10/01/2016, 06:22 PM   #8951
DamonG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
I would leave it as is and see if more frequent yellow-goo-removal helps the GHA
Sounds good.. I cleaned the yellow off yesterday.. So we will see..

from note 7


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Old 10/02/2016, 10:06 PM   #8952
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I also cleaned the turf scrubber for the first time. So this is about 2 weeks of growth I guess. There is really not much of a bioload on here yet either. Just a few cubes per day (or less) since I only feed the anemone tank every now and then. But the tank is just finishing up it's cycle, so I suppose this could be normal?



Sump kind of reminds me of a dance club.



I also measured the ATS flow with the screen installed. On a 20" long 1/8" gap with screen inserted into slot, it filled a 2 gallon rubbermaid (to the mark), in 20 seconds on average. So this says only 360gph, or only 18gph per inch. I'm not getting the 35gph suggesion in this case... not sure if there is a problem here or not. Perhaps the slot is closing up a bit because of the length? Or screen inserted too far? This was after a cleaning session/groove scrubbed.



I made some DIY light blockers, paint is still drying. This will be for the ATS to keep light out of the groove.


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Old 10/03/2016, 07:31 AM   #8953
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zachtos that's excellent growth for the conditions you have (low bioload, new screen, etc)!

I wouldn't worry too terribly about the flow, I've somewhat backed of on the 35 GPH/in being a hard rule, it's good to have better flow but at least initially, lower flow can actually be better in some cases. Mainly this has to do with avoiding arcing on a new screen (this is less of an issue as the screen matures, so it can handle additional flow without arcing)

See this post on previous page for an explanation of that http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post24755780


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Old 10/03/2016, 08:28 AM   #8954
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Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
zachtos that's excellent growth for the conditions you have (low bioload, new screen, etc)!

I wouldn't worry too terribly about the flow, I've somewhat backed of on the 35 GPH/in being a hard rule, it's good to have better flow but at least initially, lower flow can actually be better in some cases. Mainly this has to do with avoiding arcing on a new screen (this is less of an issue as the screen matures, so it can handle additional flow without arcing)

See this post on previous page for an explanation of that http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post24755780
OK, I am pretty sure it is from the groove being pinched from a long 20" cut. I can widen it in the middle a bit I suppose if needed. It is a very low trickle in the center and fairly good stream on the ends on 3" both side.


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Old 10/03/2016, 02:54 PM   #8955
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Probably have nutrients in the rock that is coming out, to have that much growth so soon.


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Old 10/06/2016, 01:08 AM   #8956
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I have a question. Has this happened to anyone putting an Algae Scrubber into their system. (Possibly oversized, or running ON too long)?

I built a DIY scrubber. Built into a section of a custom built sump. Runs on the Sump Return flow.

It's running very well after the screen matured past the slime algae stage.



This is a SPS only 65GAL tank (5 fish, all small SPS Frags), and ALL my SPS corals started having color loss & tissue recession.

All parameters ideal/stable.

Is it possible the scrubber has too drastically reduced the nutrients in my tank? Kind of like going ULNS with Zeovit.

Should a scrubber be brought online slowly? (ie Scrubber PhotoPeriod)


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Old 10/06/2016, 06:00 AM   #8957
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What are those parameters? Particularly nitrate and phosphates.


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Old 10/06/2016, 07:26 AM   #8958
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What are those parameters? Particularly nitrate and phosphates.
I'll check again, but last week:

NO3=5.0 ppm (Salifert Test Kit)
P04=0.021 ppm (Hanna Phosphorus Kit)
ALK[7.5] CALC[425] MAG[1170,just raised to 1275] SAL[1.025]


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Old 10/06/2016, 07:45 AM   #8959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally.B View Post
I have a question. Has this happened to anyone putting an Algae Scrubber into their system. (Possibly oversized, or running ON too long)?

I built a DIY scrubber. Built into a section of a custom built sump. Runs on the Sump Return flow.

It's running very well after the screen matured past the slime algae stage.



This is a SPS only 65GAL tank (5 fish, all small SPS Frags), and ALL my SPS corals started having color loss & tissue recession.

All parameters ideal/stable.

Is it possible the scrubber has too drastically reduced the nutrients in my tank? Kind of like going ULNS with Zeovit.

Should a scrubber be brought online slowly? (ie Scrubber PhotoPeriod)
I started seeing very similar issues in my SPS tank around the time I put my ATS online. I have a hard time believing they're directly related though.


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Old 10/06/2016, 10:29 AM   #8960
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I started seeing very similar issues in my SPS tank around the time I put my ATS online. I have a hard time believing they're directly related though.
Why not?

This section from the Zeovit Manaul led me to post this question here.

It is important not toexceed this recommended amount,
because excessive amounts of ZEOvit® could have anegative effect on SPS corals and lead to tissue necrosis and therefore coral death.

Signs of overdose are tissue loss starting from the coral tips or the complete
loss of all tissue within a short period of time (i.e., rapid tissue necrosis, RTN).
This problem occurs usually because of the rapid change in nutrient conditions in the tank.
As mentioned above, corals need time to adapt to changes and an overdose does not allow for gradual changes.


A scrubber reduces nutrients. Does it not?

I think I need to slow down my scrubber (for a gentler nutrient reduction). It's running too well at this point. (but it may be too late).
I thinking less LED on time is one way, since I can't control my flowrate. (The Scurbber is just an passthru section in my Sump from my return [Upflow Design])

I think I went into Instant Overdrive, since I matured my screens during the sump build (with a big fish in sump). Once I proved it worked, I decided it was ready for tank.

So when I flipped this Sump/Scrubber on my tank, it was humming too well (didn't go thru screen maturing stage slowly).

And...Since the New Sump (well designed), replaced a plain old Rubbermaid Tub Sump.
I did a "One-Two Punch Quick Nutrient Drop" on my tank, since all filtration improved (Skimmer running better too).



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Old 10/06/2016, 10:33 AM   #8961
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The symptoms are consistent, but I really don't think my nutrients dropped all that much. I think I had ~30 nitrate before, and now I have 5-10. This drop happened months ago, and the decline has been a gradual ongoing thing. I would have expected them to bounce back by now. That being said, I bought my skimmer fully broken in and growing mature algae, so I hit the ground running.


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Old 10/06/2016, 11:06 AM   #8962
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Do either of you guys run GAC and/or a skimmer?


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Old 10/06/2016, 11:09 AM   #8963
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Do either of you guys run GAC and/or a skimmer?
I run a pretty good skimmer, but don't tend to run gac. I did throw a bit in the other day after reading about algae possibly releasing unfriendly chemicals into the water.


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Old 10/06/2016, 11:46 AM   #8964
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I do run a skimmer and as I mentioned it's now running better with new sump.

I stopped running GFO since I trust Scrubber concept.
But I still run GAC. (Something wrong with running Scrubber+GAC ?)

Just did a test PO4[0.11ppm] NO3[5.0ppm].



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Old 10/06/2016, 11:54 AM   #8965
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Zeovit is also about taking nutrients down to near 0. Which would stress the corals and cause them to bleach or go pale. RTN is very possible at those extremely low levels (ULNS) if Alk is even at a moderate level which is why they try and push alk down under 8.

But nitrates at 5 and phosphates at .02 is perfectly fine. And even if they did drop to near 0 your Alk is at a low enough level to help.


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Old 10/06/2016, 12:21 PM   #8966
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Scrubbers slow down automatically when nutrients get low, because they use the same photosynthetic apparatus that corals do to grow. So they self-correct.

Chemicals like zeovit don't slow down, because they are not a living system and don't react the same way to low nutrients.


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Old 10/06/2016, 12:32 PM   #8967
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Quote:
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Scrubbers slow down automatically when nutrients get low, because they use the same photosynthetic apparatus that corals do to grow. So they self-correct.

Chemicals like zeovit don't slow down, because they are not a living system and don't react the same way to low nutrients.

^ this, exactly! The same applies, essentially, to any media like GFO, phosban, etc, as well as some carbon dosing strategies.

It still doesn't explain the RTN/STN issue through, so something else must be in play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally.B View Post
But I still run GAC. (Something wrong with running Scrubber+GAC ?)
No, I was going to suggest that you use it actually. So there goes that suggestion....


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Old 10/06/2016, 01:07 PM   #8968
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There is one other suspicion I have for my sudden change.

I did put in a "reflector mirror" at the back of the one sided Scrubber (across from the LED panel).

After this tissue loss issue, I discovered that mirrors have a layer of Silver, and Copper in them, coated in waterproof paint.

Plus that mirror is sealed very well in silicone (especially the cut edges).

So to confirm a possible copper contamination I tested the tank for Copper (that result was clean 0.00mg/L).

Then I soaked (scrap raw piece of mirror in salt water, not sealed) for a few days. I did notice a bit of corrosion at the edges which worried me.
But that test came back clean too. (Maybe the slightest shade change in test result. Not visible to my eyes, but a photograph picked up a little difference. But nothing close to any Lowest shade of blue on test strip which would be below 0.15 mg/L of Copper in the tank).

To be safe, will remove the mirror (but that will be a task!!)



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Old 10/06/2016, 01:09 PM   #8969
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Quote:
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Scrubbers slow down automatically when nutrients get low, because they use the same photosynthetic apparatus that corals do to grow. So they self-correct.

Chemicals like zeovit don't slow down, because they are not a living system and don't react the same way to low nutrients.
This is good to know (However don't zeolites slow down when nutrients low?). My concern wasn't about reducing Nutrients, but reducing them quickly.
I reduced scrubber photo period, but will crank it back up (after observing for a little bit).



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Old 10/06/2016, 05:09 PM   #8970
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Algae does not reduce them quickly; they can only grow so fast. They are slow compared to chemicals.

Other chemicals can slow down too as nutrients lessen, but they have different end points.

Your copper test probably would not show anything, because any trace copper would get picked up by organisms first.


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Old 10/06/2016, 10:48 PM   #8971
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Algae does not reduce them quickly; they can only grow so fast. They are slow compared to chemicals.

Other chemicals can slow down too as nutrients lessen, but they have different end points.

Your copper test probably would not show anything, because any trace copper would get picked up by organisms first.
All I am trying to do is determine a cause for my SPS necrosis, since may things are as before (stable water parameter, circulation, temp, no change in lighting, etc).

All I have to go with is I added a new sump with a very efficient algae scrubber.

One suspicion I have is the rapid nutrition loss theory, based on the amount of algae I'm getting daily (Scrubber is removing a Lot of something from tank. I'm no expert what.). I can't measure nutrients/organics, even though I got a Salifert Organic Test Kit a which only show extreme ends [No scale], (so no evidence there).

A second theory I have is the fact that I simply replaced a very mature Rubbermaid sump, with a clean glass sump, and it will take time to build up biological maturity on surfaces. However with a pile of live rocks in Mature Tank and a wall of ceramic bioballs from previous sump, place in this new sump, it's probably not the cause. (Plus no spike on any test kits)

This has left me suspicous about the mirror and a possible copper contamination. However tests kit says there isn't any at this point, but maybe there was at a point as some early corrosion happened. What leads me against the copper theory is my cleaner shrimp (invertebrate) is still alive. I've personally seen how quickly inverts die when copper is introduced into a tank. (However maybe SPS Corals are more sensitive, and a very slow Copper leach is damaging them). If I had some LPS/SOFT Corals, there would be something to compare, but I don't, and never will in this tank. (Other tank has everything BUT SPS).

So to totally eliminate my Copper Mirror suspicion (so I can sleep well) this should help. Even if you say that organisms have absorbed the copper, and assuming the mirror is no longer leaching Copper.



- Basically using a left over piece of same mirror used in Algae Scrubber.
- Clean Fresh SALT Water with nothing to absorb copper (except bucket, and pump)
- Will run this washing machine for a few days, and see how much mirror corrodes and if copper shows up on test kit.
- If nothing (I'll even scratch the mirror backing up and run again)
- If nothing again I can move on to other theories, and put this Sump/Scrubber off my check list.

This is no big deal, since all corals are just small SPS frags. So waiting to have a stable/safe system (Algae Free Display Tank), before taking on more expensive SPS frags for the long term.



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Old 10/07/2016, 02:04 PM   #8972
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Hmmm. Maybe Copper will show up once I test the mirror bucket..
I found my Largest Very Healthy Zebra Hermit out of his shell Dead! 2nd Hermit dead in last couple of weeks.


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Old 10/07/2016, 02:09 PM   #8973
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FYI the level of copper necessary to cause harm can be low enough to not register on a hobby test kit.

Plus, I'm not sure what else may have leached from that mirror that could cause harm.


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Old 10/07/2016, 09:02 PM   #8974
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If you changed sumps, you had to move all that material, which changed flow patterns and caused die-off of lots of the filter feeders.


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Old 10/07/2016, 11:32 PM   #8975
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If you changed sumps, you had to move all that material, which changed flow patterns and caused die-off of lots of the filter feeders.
The Sump change was a direct swap, in same location, same size, same return pump with same plumbing, and same skimmer. No flow patterns changed in the Display tank.

I didn't want the new sump to be sterile. I planned ahead of time for the build/swap.
For a months I had a box of Marine Pure BioFilter Media Balls in a cage running in the Old sump building up large amounts of bacteria.
That cage was transferred to the new sump.

Also the new glass sump that was aged/matured while I developed/tested the "In-Sump Algae scrubber".
I did this by having a Large, heavy eating fish in the sump Refuge section.
That new sump actually cycled rapidly since I fed it water from the Transfer Tanks water changes..

All I lost was the bacteria growth on the Rubbermaid sump walls. Very little overall.

BTW. If the low levels of copper are not readable on test kit, but actually killed some of my hermits. I picked up a sacrifice hermit from the store. He is sitting in the (possible copper water with the mirror). We'll see if he dies. [I've never harmed/killed any of my livestock ever on purpose, however this time one hermit is necessary].


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