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Old 01/19/2007, 09:35 PM   #1
colby
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Capensis x Reidi

Anyone had this happen before?

Just wondering if the babies are going to be benthic or palegic so I can figure out what the best rearing system will be..

thanx


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Old 01/20/2007, 06:25 PM   #2
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I am curious as to why these two species were in the same tank....not just because mixing species is dangerous in general, but especially because capensis are temperate horses and Reidi are a tropical species....What are your tank parameters? As for rearing, I would say to lean on the side of caution and assume they can't hitch...I think temperature is going to be your biggest factor in the success of raising these fry.

Good luck to you


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Old 01/20/2007, 08:43 PM   #3
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The seahorses are not mine..they are in a friends tank and she keeps the temp at 75 F. I am aware that OR recommends Capensis be kept at 72ish however considering the fact that these fish come from an estuary that regularly experience massive temperature and salinity changes to include temp spikes of higher than 80 it stands to reason that they are perfectly comfortable at 75 degrees....I have spoken with several people who have kept this species. The ones who kept them at tropical temps experienced a lifespan of virtually the same length as that of others kept in temperate waters. This indicates to me that higher temps have no negative effect on the Capensis...sure their metabolic rate is no doubt quicker, however according to my research it seems negligible....


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Old 01/20/2007, 09:42 PM   #4
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I keep several different species in my 125 and have been successful. Just watch the temp and you will be fine. Keep meds on hand just in case.

As for rearing, definitely start with a kriesel with a hitching post in the center. It is a possibility some might hitch and some might not.

Good luck and keep us informed.


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Old 01/20/2007, 11:53 PM   #5
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Cool...thanx...I am planning on them being basically Palegic and treat them like Reidi....

Of the five species I have raised (Comes, Erectus, Reidi, Kuda (Philippines variety)and Zosterae) the Reidi were by far the most challenging so I figure if I am prepared for the worst I won't have any unpleasant surprises....male is due to give birth in about a week I will post pics when available...


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Old 01/20/2007, 11:57 PM   #6
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I would keep the temp at 65F or below. 65F is the absolute highest temp I would even think about keeping caps in. Personally much lower is better.

Keeping Caps at 75F is not acceptable. Thry are temperate seahorses they need much lower temps to sustain long lives.

Caps are an endangered species. When you kill them by keeping them at that temp, thi to yourself, I just killed an endangered species.


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Old 01/21/2007, 03:43 PM   #7
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Woah Pledosophy.....lol

How long then would you say the average lifespan of these seahorses are?

I am interested in hearing why you think it is necessary to keep them at such low temps?

It has been clearly researched and shown that knsyna lagoon reaches temps of higher than 80F on a very frequent basis...they can clearly handle higher temperatures...


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Old 01/21/2007, 05:07 PM   #8
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Colby...you are absolutely correct! The Knysna lagoon ranges in temperature from 68F-80F. HOWEVER, keeping seahorses in a small glass box is considerably different than the vast water supply found in the ocean and lagoons. There is not a constant fresh supply of seawater in our tanks to keep pathogens at a minimum.

Seahorses in a small enclosed tank cannot be kept in the conditions they are found in the wild. Little glass boxes are different than large lagoons

You'll just have to trust those of us keeping, breeding, raising seahorses for years in aquariums. Yes I've had capensis. I'm one of the original group that purchased them when they became available from OR.

I will concede - in the wild capensis can "clearly handle higher temperatures.... ". I will also state, the high temperatures will cause problems for them in an aquarium. It's not a theory up for debate...or a silly idea tossed around among capensis keepers. It's a fact.

There is a vast difference between "book knowledge" and "hands-on" knowledge gained from experience. Don't try to apply information gained through research papers/studies to the keeping of seahorses in a glass box. Just a tip.

Tom


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Old 01/21/2007, 08:45 PM   #9
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Thanks for the advice ReefNutPA....

I am fully aware that an aquarium is a far cry from the big drink however as you have acknowledged we do model our miniature chunks of nature right after...mother nature...

I have spoken to several biologists keeping these fish at Public aquariums and the generally maintained them in mid 70's water...furthermore OR has acknowledged on numerous accounts that 77F is perfectly fine for these guys...

I have been breeding/raising seahorses for a good six years at this point and I would not subject these amazing creatures to any undo stress or "un-natural" living conditions without thorough research...

An creature that lives in an estuary clearly has the ability to live in a wide range of conditions....especially temperature and salinity...

With this said my question still remains unanswered...why do you insist that they must be kept at such low temperatures?


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Old 01/22/2007, 01:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by colby


I have spoken to several biologists keeping these fish at Public aquariums and the generally maintained them in mid 70's water...furthermore OR has acknowledged on numerous accounts that 77F is perfectly fine for these guys...

If OR was able to undo millions of years of evolution in a couple generations they would have won a Nobel Prize, they didn't they haven't. Personally I would think twice about using information from a vendor who is trying to sell you something and confusing it with scientific data.

Which marine biologists have you spoken with about caps?

Your aquarium is not modeled after the ocean. Far cry from it. That is just something we hobbyists say when we are trying for a more natural look, or using more biological filtration. It is impossible for the average hobbyist to have anything close to that. The dillution in and of itself is impossible to accomplish in a closed system. The food production is also a far cry from there natural habitat. The swimming space is also severly lacking.

Quote:
It has been clearly researched and shown that knsyna lagoon reaches temps of higher than 80F on a very frequent basis...they can clearly handle higher temperatures...
Those are surface temps no? What about the water temperature 60 feet below the surface. Many animals migrate lower to find cooler temps. The range of caps goes from .5 to 20 meters in depth.

There is not enough research that I am aware of (unless you have alink) that shows the number of bacterial infection affecting the seahorses of this region. We do know they are endangered and there number have greatly declined. Perhaps and this is just a wild suggestion, they don't handle the higher temps all that well.

Quote:
How long then would you say the average lifespan of these seahorses are?
Not much is known about there average lifespan in the wild as they are hard to tag. If you have any published papers on such I would love to read. I would say 7 to 9 years in ideal conditions. In the wild development, tourism, and the flooding has caused a great number of deaths which is why they are currently listed as endangered so the average lifespan in the wild is not a good determining number in the average lifespan of the horse IMO. Much like the average lifespan of a person in an undeveloped part of Africa which is riddled with Aids, malaria, and other ailments is not a good determining number of the average lifespan of a human as a whole.

Quote:
I am interested in hearing why you think it is necessary to keep them at such low temps?
Vibrio in short.

In more detail,

The succsessful keeping of caps over a long period of time is almost always coupled with lower temperatures. Caps tend to be tail draggers and are often more susebtable to bacterial infections of the tail. Many succsessful breeders of caps keep them at 65F or below. Keeping them at these temps has shown to help minimize many of the disease risks that come along with these seahorses.

Tropical horses while living in environments in the ocean that reach the 80'sF have also shown over time to do better in an aquarium environment at lower temperatures for the same reason.

There are many forms of bacteria in our systems. The ones most common to cause disease in seahorses have shown to be less virtulent in labratory studies conducted by pathologists.

Bacteria's release different proteins. Say a bacteria with a make up of iiRR releases ii at a temp of 65F. That same bacteria at a higher temp begins to release entirely different proteins at 70F now producing RR. While the seahorse had a resistence against ii, now it has to deal with a much more virtulent aggresive bacteria RR. Also at higher temps the seahorse may no longer be able to ward off the ii bacteria. You are now exposing the horse to bacteria which is much more aggresive and the seahorse ahs no previous resistance too. The simple way to eliminate this threat is through lower temperatures.

The labratory studies have shown that the bacterias common to cause disease in tropical seahorses stay far less virtulent at temps of 74F or below, almost a non factor, which is why you will see those temps being recommended so often. For temperate species like caps the bacterias are far diffrent and need lower temps.

Also it seems that the major disease issues with caps always occur with temperature spikes. Ever follow a seahorse site's disease forum in the summer. It's nuts. Somany more instances of bacterial disease occur during this period when the temps go up.

Here's an intresting project if you'd like to pursuit it, can you find another breeder of caps recommending keeping them at temps of 77F? Bet ya a dollar you can't.

HTH


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Old 01/22/2007, 03:14 PM   #11
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Thanks for the reply...

I am aware of the increased likelihood of a bacterial infection caused by undo stress from temperature spikes. I have generally maintained my SH at around 78-80 and never experienced any problems, however with that said they have been the more tropical species and they have always been in very clean water.

In regard to the recent decline in wild Capensis numbers it seems highly unlikely to me that the regional temperature would have any bearing what-so-ever (If that were the case they would likely have adapted or become extinct)...unless there are unnatural temperature spikes due to human activity in the area (not at all out of the question)... It would seem much more likely that the numbers have decreased as a result of other invasive human actions to include over fishing, boating and careless walking in the lagoon not to mention drain runoff and pollution.

Rest assured I do not take much info from OR or any other place for that matter (to include online forums..) without some serious consideration and a grain of salt...

Again to any new comers to this thread I do not have any Capensis nor do I intend on subjecting any to higher than normal temperatures....however I WILL be raising some Capensis x Reidi crosses and I am doing as much research as possible to determine how I should attempt to raise them.

I am quite familiar with pelagic fry as I have raised Reidi, Kuda and Erectus, so to that extent I am fairly prepared. I have always maintained them around 76, however from what I gather that is to high for Capensis.

So in that case if there is anyone who has some advice for me in regards to if the fry are more likely to have pelagic or benthic tendencies as well as the appropriate food size I would greatly appreciate it....


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Old 01/22/2007, 04:29 PM   #12
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For the fry, I would suggest that you take the nursery tank down to at least 68 degrees until you figure out which species they more closely resemble. I would also recommend rotifers and enriched 2-3 day old brine shrimp...and make sure you have size appropriate hitches, as you may find that some exhibit pelagic tendencies while others exhibit benthic all in the same brood.


I really hope that you don't discount the valuable advice that others have tried to give you on this subject. You were wise enough to ask for advice, the hard part is accepting it and being grateful for those who give their time and effort in trying to make you as successful as possible in your endeavor.

Good Luck
Jennifer


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Old 01/22/2007, 05:42 PM   #13
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Hmm....thanx for the advice

68 degrees, unfortunately for me I live in cali and it is not cold enough here for the house to get that cool, so I think with some fans on the tank I may be able to get the tank down to 70-272 consistently, do you guys think that will work?

And what about dosing with something like Erithromycacyn or something similar just as a bacterial preventative?

I have used rotifers before with Reidi so I will order some from Reed Mariculture, and I will also do the brine but what do you guys think about cyclopeeze? I used with Zosterae fry with mediocre success, and I am thinking they may work for the Cap/Reidi...

Thanks in advance


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Old 01/22/2007, 07:13 PM   #14
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Since the nursery will probably be on the smaller side you might want to look into an ice probe chiller if you can afford one. They can drop the temp down to what you need. I raise reidi fry in 68F, honestly I would go as low as 65F to start and then see which tendencies the fry exhibit.

IME with reidi they need rots to start. Then 4 hour old bbs, the more newly hatched the better while they still have the nutrional value of the bbs's egg sac.

Kriesels are popular with reidi but if you can get some surface aggitation via airlines, then that seems to also work for many people.

Since your already ordering from Reed's if you got a starter culture of copepods and began to culture those as supplemental food it will also help you out tremendously.

Live cycopleeze can and does work but most fru will not react to the frozen. It's worth a shot if you have some around, but usually IME they show no intrest in eating the frozen or freeze dried forms.

I would strongly urge you not to medicate the fry, but instead to cull them. Giving fry antibiotics isa sking for trouble. It creates stronger strains of the bacteria which will present as problems that are now almost impossible to cure as time progresses.

I like to attach my fry systems to refugiums with lr and macro's that have been treated with panacur to rid them of the nasties. It promotes better water quaility as well as giving them the occasional snack.

HTH


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Old 01/23/2007, 11:14 PM   #15
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hmm.....interesting thank you

I will post the pic of my rearing system which has a built in fuge in which I intend on putting a bottle or two of "tigger pods"

Unfortunately and Ice Probe is not in the cards for me being a college student but I will do what I can with some fans....

Thanks again for the advice


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Old 01/24/2007, 08:10 AM   #16
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You can get one of those ice probe chillers for around $20 on ebay, which is probably the same cost of buying a few fans and a power strip.....and it might be well worth it to keep an interesting cross alive.


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Old 01/26/2007, 08:32 AM   #17
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Those are surface temps no? What about the water temperature 60 feet below the surface. Many animals migrate lower to find cooler temps. The range of caps goes from .5 to 20 meters in depth.
Just how deep is this lagoon? Most estuaries are not more than a few feet deep in undisturbed state. Now I'm curious.

>Sarah


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Old 01/27/2007, 12:04 AM   #18
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Divers from Project Seahorse have found the species at depths of 20 meters. Not sure if they are still in the "lagoon". You can see it on there site.


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