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Old 10/25/2008, 06:52 AM   #301
EnglishRebel
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Another QT question

Okay - I understand the meed to QT new fish to prevent the introduction of parasites to your DT. I also have read the life cycle of the Ich parasite. What I am not clear on is the need to QT for 4 weeks (the life cycle of the parasite with no host). If observation of the fish doesn't show any signs of the ich parasite then one can assume that either:[list=a][*]The parasite is in the "dormant" stage where it has dropped off the fish and is on the tank bottom or in the water column.[*]There are no more parasites present in the QT tank.[/list=a]
In either case then isn't it okay to put the fish in the DT (as long as you do not transfer any water that may still contain the parasite)? Based on what I've read, as long as there is a host fish to which the parasite can attach itself, then QTing for 4 days or 4 weeks doesn't make any difference.
Am I missing something here?


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Old 10/25/2008, 07:39 AM   #302
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Quote:

"question the LFS if they have ever used copper based medications in their tanks before--if so you can't use that rock again."


If the LFS says they never used copper they are probably dreaming. If they sell fish, they almost definately use copper.
They may not have used it in the tank with the rocks but historically, and I really hate to say this but sometimes aquarium stores are not really able to hire the smartest apples in the bushel. Of course many of them are knowlegable but a lot of them are kids with very little experience. These types of businesses really can't afford to pay too much for say a marine biologist to clean tanks.
(for the people that work in LFS's, send all Hate mail to Waterkeeper care of this forum)

Quote:
I also have read the life cycle of the Ich parasite. What I am not clear on is the need to QT for 4 weeks (the life cycle of the parasite with no host). If observation of the fish doesn't show any signs of the ich parasite then one can assume that either:



The parasite is in the "dormant" stage where it has dropped off the fish and is on the tank bottom or in the water column.

There are no more parasites present in the QT tank.


In either case then isn't it okay to put the fish in the DT (as long as you do not transfer any water that may still contain the parasite)? Based on what I've read, as long as there is a host fish to which the parasite can attach itself, then QTing for 4 days or 4 weeks doesn't make any difference.
Am I missing something here?"


If you are going to the trouble to quarantine, you need to quarantine for the prescribed time or you are wasting your time and you may as well dump the fish or rock in immediately.
If there is ich in your tank either in the gravel, filter, or rocks, it is also on your fish. If you look at a fish with a magnifying glass you will see many places where a paracite toment or "baby paracite" could hide. They are usually in the gills of the fish sometimes in large numbers where you would not see them.
You should quarantine them in Waterkeepers tank if you like. He sometimes lets people put paracite infected fish in his tank just for kicks and giggles.
By the way, we went to a Halloween party MS fundraiser last night as "White Trash"



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Last edited by WaterKeeper; 10/25/2008 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 10/25/2008, 12:01 PM   #303
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For those of you that hate it when you can't read an unformated post send the hate mail to Paul.

Don't worry Paul I fixed it.

I don't place ich in my tank just for fun. I'm testing my new miracle cure that involves dosing with boiled turnip juice.

Alan,

I know what you are driving at but fish can also carry the parasite's cysts in their intestine and it enters the tank via the fish's feces. That's why the full length Q-tank period is a good idea.


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Last edited by WaterKeeper; 10/25/2008 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 10/25/2008, 12:38 PM   #304
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I haven't done this for awhile here are the articles in the Newbie Corner Series so far-

Water
Tank Selection
Lighting
Sumps
Completing The Set-up
Natural Filtration I
Natural Filtration II
Natural Filtration III


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Old 10/25/2008, 01:29 PM   #305
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Re: Another QT question

Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Okay - I understand the meed to QT new fish to prevent the introduction of parasites to your DT. I also have read the life cycle of the Ich parasite. What I am not clear on is the need to QT for 4 weeks (the life cycle of the parasite with no host). If observation of the fish doesn't show any signs of the ich parasite then one can assume that either:[list=a][*]The parasite is in the "dormant" stage where it has dropped off the fish and is on the tank bottom or in the water column.[*]There are no more parasites present in the QT tank.[/list=a]
In either case then isn't it okay to put the fish in the DT (as long as you do not transfer any water that may still contain the parasite)? Based on what I've read, as long as there is a host fish to which the parasite can attach itself, then QTing for 4 days or 4 weeks doesn't make any difference.
Am I missing something here?
greenbean (a marine biologist and RC member) has stated that 11 weeks is the magic number for ensuring that ich can't survive in one form or another.


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Old 10/25/2008, 02:25 PM   #306
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True Cap but that is when the tomont (sorry Paul that's the cyst not the infectious stage) is in very cold water. There it can remain dormant for up to 11 weeks. At the temperature common in the marine tank the life cycle is almost fully complete after 4 to 5 weeks. The cysts hatch out, usually in less than 21 days, into the free swimming tomites that must locate a host within 48 hours but it has been reported that the chance of infection diminishes rapidly after 6-8 after hatching. If they find a fish host they form a trophont, which is the visible stage we see on the infected fish. The trophont grows on the fish for about 96 hours and then returns to the substrate to form new tomonts.

There have been numerous studies that support my statements as there is great interest in this parasite in commercial aquaculture. Do a Google search on Cryptocaryon irritans for various papers.


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Old 10/25/2008, 05:38 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
True Cap but that is when the tomont (sorry Paul that's the cyst not the infectious stage) is in very cold water. There it can remain dormant for up to 11 weeks. At the temperature common in the marine tank the life cycle is almost fully complete after 4 to 5 weeks. The cysts hatch out, usually in less than 21 days, into the free swimming tomites that must locate a host within 48 hours but it has been reported that the chance of infection diminishes rapidly after 6-8 after hatching. If they find a fish host they form a trophont, which is the visible stage we see on the infected fish. The trophont grows on the fish for about 96 hours and then returns to the substrate to form new tomonts.

There have been numerous studies that support my statements as there is great interest in this parasite in commercial aquaculture. Do a Google search on Cryptocaryon irritans for various papers.
Thanks Tom--appreciate the update on this very controversial parasite.


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Old 10/25/2008, 05:41 PM   #308
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In case you missed this request:

Waterkeeper (Tom) can this thread possibly be made a sticky or added to your "new to the reef" folder?
I have had a number of people ask me

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...25&pagenumber=1

thanks
Scott


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Old 10/25/2008, 06:29 PM   #309
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Cap

I briefly get the archive page and the page but then I get a redirect and a virus security threat alert. Hope that wasn't what you wanted stickied as I know nothing about treating fish viruses.


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Old 10/25/2008, 09:20 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Cap

I briefly get the archive page and the page but then I get a redirect and a virus security threat alert. Hope that wasn't what you wanted stickied as I know nothing about treating fish viruses.
Should be the thread I started about wearing gloves

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1488507


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Old 10/25/2008, 09:22 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B


If the LFS says they never used copper they are probably dreaming. If they sell fish, they almost definately use copper.
They may not have used it in the tank with the rocks but historically, and I really hate to say this but sometimes aquarium stores are not really able to hire the smartest apples in the bushel. Of course many of them are knowlegable but a lot of them are kids with very little experience. These types of businesses really can't afford to pay too much for say a marine biologist to clean tanks.
(for the people that work in LFS's, send all Hate mail to Waterkeeper care of this forum)

[/b]

If you are going to the trouble to quarantine, you need to quarantine for the prescribed time or you are wasting your time and you may as well dump the fish or rock in immediately.
If there is ich in your tank either in the gravel, filter, or rocks, it is also on your fish. If you look at a fish with a magnifying glass you will see many places where a paracite toment or "baby paracite" could hide. They are usually in the gills of the fish sometimes in large numbers where you would not see them.
You should quarantine them in Waterkeepers tank if you like. He sometimes lets people put paracite infected fish in his tank just for kicks and giggles.
By the way, we went to a Halloween party MS fundraiser last night as "White Trash"
[/B]
glad to see that you guys are still fortunate enough to have a pot to pee in


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Old 10/25/2008, 09:26 PM   #312
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OK, I see it now. Must be that infection spread to your post.

There is a much older thread on the very same subject. I'll try to find it and add both under reefkeeping safety.

Thanks


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Old 10/25/2008, 10:10 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
OK, I see it now. Must be that infection spread to your post.

There is a much older thread on the very same subject. I'll try to find it and add both under reefkeeping safety.

Thanks
thanks Tom


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:12 AM   #314
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Hi im new to RC and i do have a question about water, i see a lot of people starting up there new reef tanks with RO water and i was wondering can i start a reef tank with DI water, i do useDI water for top offs. I ask this because i dont have the money at the time to buy a RO water filter.


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:24 AM   #315
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You certainly can. The resins will not last nearly as long with plain tap water but the water will be clean enough for a reef.
I used it for many years with no problems except that the resins got expensive. With a RO they last much longer.


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:30 AM   #316
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so it is safe to use DI water to start a tank and what is this resin you speak of?


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:31 AM   #317
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or distilled water if youwant to call it by its full name


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:32 AM   #318
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DI = Deizonization Resins

Yes you can use them to purify water to start your tank.
I diden't say RO is bad, RO in conjunction with DI is the best but you can use just the resins.
If anyone argues with you, send them to me.


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:37 AM   #319
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lol,sry im sort of lost with the resin, but your saying distilled water is fine to use to start my tank, but if i want to use RO water later would i have any problems, with mixing 2 different water together


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Old 10/29/2008, 05:58 AM   #320
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Quote:
but your saying distilled water is fine to use to start my tank,
No I diden't say anything about distilled water. I said DI water would be fine. Distilled water is different. With DI or resins the resins eliminate most (but not all) pollutants. RO also removes most but not all pollutants. The pollutants left will be very low and should not be of concern.
Distilled water is made by heating the water and catching the steam that evaporates also makes the water very clean but sometimes copper coils are used in the process and this may add unwanted copper to your water which will build up in your tank.
It usually is fine but not always.
Good luck.
Waterkeeper may tell you that you can use saliva instead of water so make sure he is awake when he answers before you start spitting in your tank


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Old 10/29/2008, 06:15 AM   #321
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o wow and i use distilled water for top offs in my 2.5 ahhhhhhh, but i cantfind RO water anywhere what do i do, and im goin to kill the guy at the petstore for saying it was fine touse distilled water


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Old 10/29/2008, 06:24 AM   #322
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Distilled water "usually" is perfectly safe DI is better and DI with RO is best


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Old 10/29/2008, 06:26 AM   #323
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Not to worry saltboy, Paul B.is just reverting to his days when he made moonshine. Indeed copper condenser coils were used to make distilled water in days of yore. That latter was changed to block tin condenser and, today, quartz condensers are very common. Why? The EPA regulates the level of copper in drinking water these days and some people drink distilled. The manufactures therefore abandoned using copper equipment some time ago.

The distilled water you have is probably fine. It is purer than RO but not as pure as RO/DI. Yet, the level of purity is fine for a reef tank. If you are worried ask the LFS to check for copper in a sample of the distilled. I bet it will be absent.


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Old 10/29/2008, 06:33 AM   #324
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hmm, question what is LFS i see that alot does it stand for live fish store, lol and ilive in fredericksburg viginia and we dont have very many ppl that sell saltwater fish i only know of one place they seem to know a lot about it but ill give them a call and see if they can test it for me, also i have been using a real ocean water from petco that has no phospate or nitrates in it and has a ph of 8.3 now the reviews on this seem to be good, i use this product because all you have to do is poor it in and your good but its pricey for only 5 gallon box sois there any salt mixes that you would recommend


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Old 10/29/2008, 06:37 AM   #325
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there isa number onthe bottle i call that also and it was purified by distillation 0.2-micron filtered and ozonated


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