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Old 11/08/2008, 09:59 AM   #376
Aquarist007
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
WaterKeeper
Back on the QT trail When QTing live rock is it okay to run DT water through the QT tank and back to the sump with suitable traps for any bad hithchikers or do we need to QT the rock as we would fish?
Thanks
I am interpreting this question a little different then WaterKeeper here so to be on the safe side:

If you are asking if you qt tank should be connected to the same water column as your display tank the answer IMO would be

never

The whole idea of the qt tank is to isolate possible bacteria, personna non gratia hitchikers and diseases from the display tank water column.


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Old 11/08/2008, 11:01 AM   #377
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Ah! What I was thinking is if there was a way to connect the two. Can be done but some sort of disease barrier, UV, micron filter, must be between the two systems.


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Old 11/08/2008, 11:18 AM   #378
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Update-

Water
Tank Selection
Lighting
Sumps
Completing The Set-up
Natural Filtration I
Natural Filtration II
Natural Filtration III
Water Testing

Hey folks! If you have any ideas for an article for Reefkeeping then post them here or, if you have an article of your own, PM Melev, our editor. After all, I'm not


Mr. Know-It-All

Althought some would disagree.


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Old 11/08/2008, 11:30 AM   #379
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Hey Tom,

I'm curious to know the math on how to "determine magnesium by subtracting out the calcium determined in the calcium test"

Does this tell you the magnesium in the tank with-out using a magnesium test?


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Old 11/08/2008, 01:14 PM   #380
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Ah! What I was thinking is if there was a way to connect the two. Can be done but some sort of disease barrier, UV, micron filter, must be between the two systems.
I would think that would be reserved for a very experienced reefer, not for someone new to reef keeping.


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Old 11/08/2008, 01:17 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Update-

Water
Tank Selection
Lighting
Sumps
Completing The Set-up
Natural Filtration I
Natural Filtration II
Natural Filtration III
Water Testing

Hey folks! If you have any ideas for an article for Reefkeeping then post them here or, if you have an article of your own, PM Melev, our editor. After all, I'm not


Mr. Know-It-All

Althought some would disagree.
Most would agree you are definetly a wise a** er owl




A wise old owl

just about lived at RC

the more he saw

the less he spoke;

the less he spoke

the more he heard.

Why can't we all be

like that wise old bird



reef keeping safety 101-----I've been on that one ever since I almost lost my hand and or arm.


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Last edited by Aquarist007; 11/08/2008 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 11/08/2008, 02:01 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phillybean
Hey Tom,

I'm curious to know the math on how to "determine magnesium by subtracting out the calcium determined in the calcium test"

Does this tell you the magnesium in the tank with-out using a magnesium test?
Man, the article has been up for less than 12 hours and already someone asks. OK, stay with me cause it is somewhat complicated (the main reason I didn't explain it in the article itself).

Usually, total hardness is measured in ppm of Hardness as CaCO3. That is somewhat of a convention as the main reason people measure hardness is in water softening. It includes mainly calcium and magnesium but can also include other divalent cations. In seawater, calcium and magnesium are the two main hardness ions and we can get a pretty clear determination of their total content with this test.

When you run the test on typical seawater you get a reading of around 6630 ppm of hardness as calcium carbonate. Fine and dandy but it doesn't differentiate between what is calcium and what is magnesium. Now we need to do a little math.

Say we test for calcium and get a reading of 440 ppm as Ca. Well if we multiple that number by 2.5 we convert Ca as Ca to Ca as CaCO3. Here, 440 ppm as Ca as Ca x 2.5=1000 ppm as CaCO3. To find magnesium we first subtract the Ca as CaCO3 from our total hardness measurement. Let's say it was 6630 ppm. That means we have 6630 ppm - 1000 ppm = 5630 ppm of Mg as CaCO3. We're still not there yet as we want to know Mg as Mg. We then divide the Mg as CaCO3 by 4.17 ( the conversion factor for changing Mg as CaCO3 to Mg as Mg). This gives us 1350 ppm and that is our true magnesium content of the water sample.

In a nutshell

Find the Total hardness
Find the calcium with a calcium test kit and multiply by 2.5
Subtract that value form the total hardness
Divide that remainder by 4.17
The answer it the Magnesium content of the sample.

Have Fun!


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Old 11/08/2008, 03:40 PM   #383
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OK so now I have a headache.
I usually do it a little differently, once in a while, like every few months, I dump in a container of Epsom Salts.
I never was real good at math.
OK so Tom's method is a little better.


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Old 11/08/2008, 05:43 PM   #384
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Wanton use of magnesium sulfate in my book.


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Old 11/08/2008, 06:01 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Man, the article has been up for less than 12 hours and already someone asks. OK, stay with me cause it is somewhat complicated (the main reason I didn't explain it in the article itself).

Usually, total hardness is measured in ppm of Hardness as CaCO3. That is somewhat of a convention as the main reason people measure hardness is in water softening. It includes mainly calcium and magnesium but can also include other divalent cations. In seawater, calcium and magnesium are the two main hardness ions and we can get a pretty clear determination of their total content with this test.

When you run the test on typical seawater you get a reading of around 6630 ppm of hardness as calcium carbonate. Fine and dandy but it doesn't differentiate between what is calcium and what is magnesium. Now we need to do a little math.

Say we test for calcium and get a reading of 440 ppm as Ca. Well if we multiple that number by 2.5 we convert Ca as Ca to Ca as CaCO3. Here, 440 ppm as Ca as Ca x 2.5=1000 ppm as CaCO3. To find magnesium we first subtract the Ca as CaCO3 from our total hardness measurement. Let's say it was 6630 ppm. That means we have 6630 ppm - 1000 ppm = 5630 ppm of Mg as CaCO3. We're still not there yet as we want to know Mg as Mg. We then divide the Mg as CaCO3 by 4.17 ( the conversion factor for changing Mg as CaCO3 to Mg as Mg). This gives us 1350 ppm and that is our true magnesium content of the water sample.

In a nutshell

Find the Total hardness
Find the calcium with a calcium test kit and multiply by 2.5
Subtract that value form the total hardness
Divide that remainder by 4.17
The answer it the Magnesium content of the sample.

Have Fun!
I love analytic chemistry
but I still prefer my Salifert Magnesium test kit to get a reading of magnesium


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Old 11/10/2008, 08:55 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally posted by capn_hylinur
I would think that would be reserved for a very experienced reefer, not for someone new to reef keeping.
Actually my questions came about through ignorance (don't they all ) I assumed (wrongly of course as pointed out in yours and WaterKeepers answers) that I was only to be concerned about things like worms and other inverts that one wouldn't want in the DT. I hadn't considered pathogens and other micro biological "stuff". If these weren't of concern then recirculating water from the DT with a physical barrier to prevent aforementioned pests from getting into the DT would be an easier route than a self contained QT.
Thanks for pointing that out.


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Old 11/10/2008, 09:10 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Actually my questions came about through ignorance (don't they all ) I assumed (wrongly of course as pointed out in yours and WaterKeepers answers) that I was only to be concerned about things like worms and other inverts that one wouldn't want in the DT. I hadn't considered pathogens and other micro biological "stuff". If these weren't of concern then recirculating water from the DT with a physical barrier to prevent aforementioned pests from getting into the DT would be an easier route than a self contained QT.
Thanks for pointing that out.
no apologies necessary---please ask and continue to ask questions--no one here looks at them as ignorant.

the norm of reefers is to have a separate qt that is setup for the duration of the observation and or treatment and then is taken down and rinsed out before the next use of it.


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Old 11/10/2008, 12:31 PM   #388
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Chiming in.

We really don't have a good handle on bacterial pathogens in fish and practically nothing about viruses. The usual predators we face are protozoa and they, thank goodness are fairly large. Barrier filter can and do catch these threats and will eliminate them in almost every stage of their life process. The smallest bacteria are only about 0.22 microns whereas the protists are almost always over a full micron. Using a canister with a 1 micron filter will eliminate all and at 5 microns most.


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Old 11/10/2008, 03:54 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Chiming in.

We really don't have a good handle on bacterial pathogens in fish and practically nothing about viruses. The usual predators we face are protozoa and they, thank goodness are fairly large. Barrier filter can and do catch these threats and will eliminate them in almost every stage of their life process. The smallest bacteria are only about 0.22 microns whereas the protists are almost always over a full micron. Using a canister with a 1 micron filter will eliminate all and at 5 microns most.
So are you saying it is okay then to hook up a qt to a display tank water column


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Old 11/10/2008, 05:06 PM   #390
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If you have some sort of a barrier to prevent the movement of the pathogens between the two tanks. Something like a UV or a micron polishing filter should isolate the two.


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Old 11/11/2008, 04:41 AM   #391
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Quote:
So are you saying it is okay then to hook up a qt to a display tank water column
I don't know about that but sinse it is Veterans Day I won't get involved.

Happy Veterans Day


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Old 11/11/2008, 05:12 AM   #392
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B
I don't know about that but sinse it is Veterans Day I won't get involved.

Happy Veterans Day
It's Remembrance Day here---so Happy Remembrance Day Paul

I hope tomorrow its back with your involvement


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Old 11/11/2008, 07:34 AM   #393
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If you have some sort of a barrier to prevent the movement of the pathogens between the two tanks. Something like a UV or a micron polishing filter should isolate the two.
No I can't leave, I just have to get into this but it breaks my heart.
Waterkeeper old man, you are correct (almost). But I personally would not risk it. Although a micron filter like a diatom filter will remove particles as small as a bacteria (so it says) I doubt that 100% of the water actually flows through the powder.
That bag that the powder sticks to is a real bad design with too many places where there are large holes which the powder will not adhere to and raw water would by pass the thing. I re designed mine with a better system. If you leave a diatom, UV or whatever on a tank long enough Iwould imagine that eventually all of the water would get at least one pass through the filtering agent but I would also imagine (in one of my imagining modes) that if we were going to let water pass this filter once from the quarantine tank to the main tank, we would let a hell of a lot of "stuff" into our main tank that we don't want there.
Those filters just have too much leakage.
But besides this, Waterkeeper is the Man.
I usually send the stuff that gets through my diatom filter to Tom to put in his tank as a test.


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Old 11/11/2008, 12:36 PM   #394
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Okay that settles it -- I will do a standalone QT tank to stop this infighting amongst you experts. Don't want anyone to get hurt (physically or egotistically).


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Old 11/11/2008, 12:50 PM   #395
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stop this infighting amongst you experts.
I'm just a retired electrician, you must be talking about
Waterpollluter.


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Old 11/11/2008, 04:35 PM   #396
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Quote:
stop this infighting amongst you experts.
Experts? Where are they? You may consider going to the Advanced Topic Forum as they may linger there.

Paul, I do agree, it is risky at best, to connect multiple tanks in the home. Pet stores do it but I'm not so sure they take the proper precautions to avoid widespread contamination. After all, they keep the livestock for only as week or so.

Happy V-day, althought we don't finish what we start anymore.


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Last edited by WaterKeeper; 11/11/2008 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 11/11/2008, 04:49 PM   #397
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Pet stores do it but I'm not so sure they take the proper precautions to avoid widespread contamination. After all, they keep the livestock for only as week or so.
Yes Tom Pet stores do it but "experts" like us generally know that just about all fish in pet stores have ich (and God know what else, maybe even social diseases) As soon as you remove a fish from their copper laden tanks, POW ich appears all over the place. Of course in our "expert" tanks that is not a problem but for you noobs that have tanks less than 20 years old, you may be in trouble.

There is a large LFS around the block from me and they can't keep coral for a week. When I buy from them I get it from the shipping container, after it goes in their tank, I don't want it. I do get some good deals on half dead corals that I sometimes bring back to life.


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Old 11/11/2008, 05:10 PM   #398
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Tom
Just read your chemistry 101 article and have a question on the calcium testing. You say to stop at the first sign of blue, even if it reverts back to pink. With my Salifert test kit, pretty early on I'll see a flash of blue on the surface that disappears back to pink in a second. Is that were I stop, or do I keep going till the entire vile turns blue for a few seconds?

Thanks.

Phil


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Old 11/11/2008, 05:25 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alaska_Phil
Tom
Just read your chemistry 101 article and have a question on the calcium testing. You say to stop at the first sign of blue, even if it reverts back to pink. With my Salifert test kit, pretty early on I'll see a flash of blue on the surface that disappears back to pink in a second. Is that were I stop, or do I keep going till the entire vile turns blue for a few seconds?

Thanks.

Phil
make sure you are shaking the vial and you keep adding drops until the blue colour is permanent


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Old 11/11/2008, 05:28 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Okay that settles it -- I will do a standalone QT tank to stop this infighting amongst you experts. Don't want anyone to get hurt (physically or egotistically).
fight no--discuss and enlighten yes

This is why I consider these two guys my mentors on RC

but I am surprised they could be serious with each other for more than two posts


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