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Old 10/18/2008, 06:45 AM   #276
EnglishRebel
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In one of your Newbie articles you mentioned glueing acrylic dowels to the bottom of live rock to keep if off the bottom of the tank and expose as much of the rock as possible to the water column. Would it be okay to have egg crate sitting on say 2" diameter dowels just below the sand line? Also by elevating the rock don't you run the risk of fish excavating under the rock?
Thanks
PS BTW the Triad is not an electrical device or a Chinese gang -- it's the three cities area of NC comprising Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and High Point (aka the "Furniture Capital of the World" )


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Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

Current Tank Info: 60x30x24 200G AO custom glass tank, basement equipment room, 30G and 55G Fuges, LifeReef sump & 30" skimmer.

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Old 10/19/2008, 07:12 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
WaterKeeper
In one of your Newbie articles you mentioned glueing acrylic dowels to the bottom of live rock to keep if off the bottom of the tank and expose as much of the rock as possible to the water column. Would it be okay to have egg crate sitting on say 2" diameter dowels just below the sand line? Also by elevating the rock don't you run the risk of fish excavating under the rock?
Thanks
PS BTW the Triad is not an electrical device or a Chinese gang -- it's the three cities area of NC comprising Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and High Point (aka the "Furniture Capital of the World" )
I would be interested in the answer to this one also. I would be more concerned about pockets of phosphates and nitrates forming then acutually providing more surface area for aerobic bacteria by letting the under surface of the rock "breathe"
IMO the rock in contact with the substrate or buried in it provides a home for anerobic and anoxic bacteria--there is plenty of external exposed space for aerobic bacteria.


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Old 10/19/2008, 11:52 AM   #278
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Good question Alan,

The use of eggcrate is ok but as the Capt points out you end up having little pockets of sand in each crate chamber. Dowel material is solid and avoids these tiny pockets. Sand shifters can move freely around the dowel material. True, so can some burrowing fish but the dowels form a solid base structure and there is little chance that they will move.

You don't glue anything. Just cut the dowels to the same length and place them in the tank bottom and fill the sand around them slightly higher, about an eight of an inch or less, than the top of the dowels. Once you have a foundation you merely place the LR on top of the dowels.


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Old 10/20/2008, 10:20 AM   #279
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My only concern about dowels is their stability. If you can get say 2" diameter or greater I would definitely go this route. Smaller than 1" would IMHO not be stable enough unless they were linked together (which is why I suggested egg crate -- but can see the drawback with that method). If I cannot find large dowels then I think I will glue the smaller ones together with acrylic to form a grid.
I'm really taking my time with this project but am making progress -- I poured the curb for the wall of the new equipment room this morning and lumber order is going in this afternoon.
Watch out for a "Newbie Builds His First Reef" post on RC (with lots of pics - reefers just LOVE pictures )


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Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

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Old 10/20/2008, 10:30 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Good question Alan,

The use of eggcrate is ok but as the Capt points out you end up having little pockets of sand in each crate chamber. Dowel material is solid and avoids these tiny pockets. Sand shifters can move freely around the dowel material. True, so can some burrowing fish but the dowels form a solid base structure and there is little chance that they will move.

You don't glue anything. Just cut the dowels to the same length and place them in the tank bottom and fill the sand around them slightly higher, about an eight of an inch or less, than the top of the dowels. Once you have a foundation you merely place the LR on top of the dowels.
thanks for clarifying Tom--a great idea---learn something new everyday on RC
I was looking for something to put in the bottom of my sump--the last batch of Haitan rock put a hole in the bottom of the plastic sump---dowels would work well--probably better then egg crate---the egg crate not being smooth on the edges like the dowel.




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Old 10/20/2008, 07:15 PM   #281
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and you can add as many dowels as you please (they cost less than LS ). The more you use, the more stable the rock will be.


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Old 10/21/2008, 06:57 AM   #282
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I have another question concerning a QT tank. You recommended to keep a sponge in the sump so that when you need to set up a QT tank, you can add the sponge which will have good bacteria in it. However I've also read that a sponge can be a breeding ground for bad bacteria and that you should not keep on in the sump for more than a couple of days.
What am I missing here?


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Sir Winston Churchill praising those young RAF pilots.
August 20th 1940
Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

Current Tank Info: 60x30x24 200G AO custom glass tank, basement equipment room, 30G and 55G Fuges, LifeReef sump & 30" skimmer.
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Old 10/21/2008, 07:02 AM   #283
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I've also read that a sponge can be a breeding ground for bad bacteria and that you should not keep on in the sump for more than a couple of days.
Yeah Tom, what about those bad bacteria. I hate those.

Actually a sponge an Oldsmobile fender or a tree limb will all aquire the same bacteria as everything else in your tank.
If there is "bad" bacteria in the sump, it will also be in the sponge.
Bad bacteria is disease causing bacteria and it is everywhere including on your hands but I don't want to do Waterkeeper's job, he has slept long enough so Waterkeeper what are we going to do about these Bad bacteria?


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Old 10/21/2008, 07:53 AM   #284
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Originally posted by Paul B
Yeah Tom, what about those bad bacteria. ...what are we going to do about these Bad bacteria?
I say ground them and not let them watch TV.

I think the bad sponge we are talking about is the one in the kitchen sink. It can pick up salmonella and other bad guys form the counter top and act as a refuge. Bad for humans but not so much for fish.

I actually said to run a small bio-wheel on the sump and, when needed, use it for a ready made bio-filter for the Q-tank. Neither the sponge, nor a bio-wheel, should harbor much in the way of a threat. Most pathogenic bacteria tend to opportunistic anyway and are more of a danger to an injured fish than a healthy fish. Now, if you use it on a hospital tank, you can always add an antibiotic if the fish seem to get signs of an infection. That pretty much does in the the bio-wheel's population too so large, frequent water changes are a must for a medicated hospital tank.


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Old 10/21/2008, 09:33 AM   #285
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Originally posted by WaterKeeper
I say ground them and not let them watch TV.

I think the bad sponge we are talking about is the one in the kitchen sink. It can pick up salmonella and other bad guys form the counter top and act as a refuge. Bad for humans but not so much for fish.

I actually said to run a small bio-wheel on the sump and, when needed, use it for a ready made bio-filter for the Q-tank. Neither the sponge, nor a bio-wheel, should harbor much in the way of a threat. Most pathogenic bacteria tend to opportunistic anyway and are more of a danger to an injured fish than a healthy fish. Now, if you use it on a hospital tank, you can always add an antibiotic if the fish seem to get signs of an infection. That pretty much does in the the bio-wheel's population too so large, frequent water changes are a must for a medicated hospital tank.
to further add------three days prior to setting up your qt run an hob filter on the sump of the display tank
On the day of setting up the qt--use water from the existing display and transfer over the hob filter.
If using the qt for observations or using hyposalination then you can also add a piece of live rock to the qt.
this should be all you need for filtration.

(you will also need a heater)

alot of reefers keep track of the ammonia levels by using this indicator:




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Old 10/21/2008, 12:24 PM   #286
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Thanks guys. I guess I was comparing a sponge to a sock that some use to trap junk. Two different animals I guess. The HOB sounds good and that ammonia alert device looks like a winner. Do you have to check it with a more accurate test kit once in a while?


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Alan

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. "
Sir Winston Churchill praising those young RAF pilots.
August 20th 1940
Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

Current Tank Info: 60x30x24 200G AO custom glass tank, basement equipment room, 30G and 55G Fuges, LifeReef sump & 30" skimmer.
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Old 10/21/2008, 02:30 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Thanks guys. I guess I was comparing a sponge to a sock that some use to trap junk. Two different animals I guess. The HOB sounds good and that ammonia alert device looks like a winner. Do you have to check it with a more accurate test kit once in a while?
I personally don't run either anymore--sponges or filter media and or a micron filter sock.
They have the ability to trap nitrates and release them back into the water column
this is because they can't support anoxic bacteria--the bacteria responsible for breaking down nitrates to nitrogen gas--thus completing the nitrogen cycle.
This includes trickle filters with or without bioballs, fluvals, canister filters ect ect.
Best to remove all the media where possible nitrates can collect.


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Old 10/21/2008, 04:55 PM   #288
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Randy and I have had several discussions on that very subject. In the rules of chemistry we need to have a mass balance,that is, nitrogen introduced to the tank equal nitrogen compounds found in the water column.

In other words, you don't create more nitrate than the amount of nitrogen containing substances introduced into the tank. The introduction is mainly from the protein in the food we feed the inhabitants. That protein is hydrolyzed into ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrate.

This begs the question on how a fixed film media, something like a UGF or bioballs could create more nitrate than the proteins added to form it. I proposed a theory that perhaps the air plentiful media also encouraged the nitrogen fixing cyanobacter. They could therefore take nitrogen from the atmosphere and convert it to ammonia or nitrate.

Randy feels it is more a problem in proximity. In a LR system both nitrate production and reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas occur within centimeters of each other. When using a mechanical filter condition,without low oxygen content, it is not conducive to nitrate to nitrogen as the low oxygen areas are further down the system, ie. sand bed and rock.

Both are plausible theories but neither is proven by data.

A good theory to explore for the next science fair.


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Old 10/21/2008, 10:03 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper
[B

This begs the question on how a fixed film media, something like a UGF or bioballs could create more nitrate than the proteins added to form it. I proposed a theory that perhaps the air plentiful media also encouraged the nitrogen fixing cyanobacter. They could therefore take nitrogen from the atmosphere and convert it to ammonia or nitrate.

[/B]
Great Mentor-----
with regard to bioballs ect--Isn't it a matter that they collect nitrates with all the other crap which can't be broken down any further and can end up back in the system.
I am not quite clear on how they can produce their own nitrates?


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Old 10/22/2008, 05:12 AM   #290
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This begs the question on how a fixed film media, something like a UGF or bioballs could create more nitrate than the proteins added to form it.
Thats amazing, I always thought something like a UG filter would be the absolute worst thing anyone could possably put into their system and ther nitrates would go through the roof.
Live and learn.
I can't wait unitl tomorrow to see what else I will learn.
I love this stuff.

(it took fifty years to come up with what I have been telling people all along. I even discussed this with Pres Eisenhower)


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Old 10/22/2008, 07:35 AM   #291
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Originally posted by Paul B
Thats amazing, I always thought something like a UG filter would be the absolute worst thing anyone could possably put into their system and ther nitrates would go through the roof.
Live and learn.
I can't wait unitl tomorrow to see what else I will learn.
I love this stuff.

(it took fifty years to come up with what I have been telling people all along. I even discussed this with Pres Eisenhower)
I have the same ideas as you about UG filters------hmmm I think I learned it from another mentor of mine name PaulB
the coincidences on here are amazing sometimes

I would still prefer to go the route of the remote DSB


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Old 10/22/2008, 11:02 AM   #292
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But you forget that Paul screwed up on the plumbing and his UGF runs backwards.


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Old 10/22/2008, 01:25 PM   #293
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Originally posted by WaterKeeper
But you forget that Paul screwed up on the plumbing and his UGF runs backwards.
I don't think he screwed up. Don't forget the three things plumbers learn at school:
[list=1][*]Hot on the left[*]Cold on the right[*]Sh** water**t flows downhill[/list=1]
Ignoring that thingy with impellors -- ur what do you call it?? -- a pump, that's it, a pump.



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"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. "
Sir Winston Churchill praising those young RAF pilots.
August 20th 1940
Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

Current Tank Info: 60x30x24 200G AO custom glass tank, basement equipment room, 30G and 55G Fuges, LifeReef sump & 30" skimmer.
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Old 10/22/2008, 05:15 PM   #294
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Originally posted by WaterKeeper
But you forget that Paul screwed up on the plumbing and his UGF runs backwards.
please don't get him going on reverse underground filters again Tom


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Old 10/22/2008, 05:17 PM   #295
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Originally posted by EnglishRebel
I don't think he screwed up. Don't forget the three things plumbers learn at school:
[list=1][*]Hot on the left[*]Cold on the right[*]Sh** water**t flows downhill[/list=1]
Ignoring that thingy with impellors -- ur what do you call it?? -- a pump, that's it, a pump.
never had a problem with my pumps--even my grandkids can operate them for me---never a problem with power outages either:




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Old 10/23/2008, 04:10 PM   #296
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WHAT, you guys dont use UG filters. What are you Aliens?


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Old 10/24/2008, 07:42 AM   #297
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WHAT, you guys dont use UG filters. What are you Aliens?
at least my boys are learning about using a trough in the above picture.


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Old 10/24/2008, 08:40 AM   #298
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And Fine looking boys they are too


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Old 10/24/2008, 06:58 PM   #299
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And Fine looking boys they are too
thanks Paul---but here is the youngest "Capn Carter" a born to be reefer too






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Old 10/24/2008, 07:09 PM   #300
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Waterkeeper (Tom) can this thread possibly be made a sticky or added to your "new to the reef" folder?
I have had a number of people ask me

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=1

thanks
Scott


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