Reef Central Online Community
Premium Aquatics

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 01/09/2008, 12:28 PM   #1
nmhs2
Registered Member
 
nmhs2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Boston
Posts: 224
Lfs And Qt Their Fish

Ok so i got a question on LFS's. Say they get their shipment of fish in and acclimate them into the tanks. Those fish stay in there at least days to weeks maybe months. Anways what brings them into such luck with their fish not getting ich through their tanks? Think of it its like one big QT right? What if one fish has ich, most setups are interconnected through all their tanks, what makes that ich not spread to other fish, or possibly questionig QT process?


nmhs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 12:34 PM   #2
Husky_1
Premium Member
 
Husky_1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: South FL
Posts: 1,541
I am not sure , but I think i have seen ICH at almost all LFS's that I have been to. Most of the time I have seen it on Tangs etc..


__________________
Out of the hobby, but thinking of rejoining

Current Tank Info: 92 Reef, 10 Reef
Husky_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 12:37 PM   #3
The_Browns
Registered Member
 
The_Browns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winter Garden, FL
Posts: 1,046
I notice ICH on lots of fish at LFS's aswell


__________________
Mike & Jenn

Current Tank Info: 120g DT and 35g frag tank
The_Browns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 12:43 PM   #4
nmhs2
Registered Member
 
nmhs2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Boston
Posts: 224
yes thats what i mean sorry so what makes the LFS have fish that still survive with other fish that contracted ich around it? what im getting to is that its like not QT new fish and dumping them into the main tank, yet if we do that everyone says ich will spread to other fishes, it doesnt always happen in LFS right?


nmhs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 12:57 PM   #5
seapug
Registered Member
 
seapug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 4980 ft.
Posts: 7,954
Blog Entries: 1
Many LFS keep their fish in a separate system from the corals and inverts so they can medicate when needed. When you don't see any crabs or shrimp in the same system as the fish there's a high likelihood it's medicated with copper. I always ask if the system has been treated before taking a new fish home so I can be extra careful not to introduce medicated LFS water to my tank when acclimating.


__________________
insert clever saying here.

Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.
seapug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:02 PM   #6
nmhs2
Registered Member
 
nmhs2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Boston
Posts: 224
ur absolutely right they could be medicating!!! damn


nmhs2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:07 PM   #7
obzezzed350
Registered Member
 
obzezzed350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Davie, FL
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally posted by Husky_1
I am not sure , but I think i have seen ICH at almost all LFS's that I have been to. Most of the time I have seen it on Tangs etc..
+1 on the tangs


obzezzed350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:17 PM   #8
pete620
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Southern Virginia
Posts: 142
My LFS has signs up listing the ph, salinity, and copper level in their fish systems.


pete620 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:30 PM   #9
Travis L. Stevens
Registered Member
 
Travis L. Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perry, OK
Posts: 13,946
Re: Lfs And Qt Their Fish

Quote:
Originally posted by nmhs2
[B]Ok so i got a question on LFS's.[b]
Okay. Let's hear it.

Quote:
Say they get their shipment of fish in and acclimate them into the tanks. Those fish stay in there at least days to weeks maybe months.
Okay. I'm following you. I see what you're saying.

Quote:
Anways what brings them into such luck with their fish not getting ich through their tanks?
That's just it. It's really luck. They are getting healthy fish in that are able to keep ich from infecting them. It also doesn't mean that they don't have ich though they don't show any outward signs.

Quote:
Think of it its like one big QT right?

Actually, it's not one big QT tank. By definition, to quarintine something, you need to seperate it alone from any other outward sources to keep it from being infected or to keep it from infecting others.

Quote:
What if one fish has ich, most setups are interconnected through all their tanks, what makes that ich not spread to other fish, or possibly questionig QT process?
If one fish has a disease or parasite, then the entire system has been jeopordized, therefore not a true quarintine tank or process.

That's looking at it from the detailed point of view. Now we need to apply it to a large scenario such as a fish store. If a retail shop claims to QT their fish before selling and does any of the following then they are not QTing properly, and are either using QTing as a sales gimmick or unintentionally do not fully understand the process of QTing:

1) QTing with multiple animals in one tank system.
2) Multiple tanks are connected together.
3) Introduces any substrate, rock, coral, invertebrate, or other live animals/plants in the tank without first QTing it.
4) Uses filter media, decoration, equipment, etc from other tanks and has not been properly disinfected.

Unfortunately, I've only seen one shop properly QT their livestock, but they went downhill for different reasons. I've seen multiple shops claim to QT, but were not doing it properly. These false claims can be harmful to the retailer, consumer, and the hobby as a whole and I personally avoid stores that claim to QT and fail to do so properly. I will occassionally by from stores who try their best, but just don't have it down pat. I will take those animals home and QT them properly at home.


__________________
Travis Stevens

Current Tank Info: Restarting 28g Bowfront
Travis L. Stevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:36 PM   #10
Travis L. Stevens
Registered Member
 
Travis L. Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perry, OK
Posts: 13,946
Also, I just saw Seapug mentioning medicated systems. There are many stores that attempt to bypass QTing by "medicating" their systems. Unfortunately, there is no miracle cure that can be added to tank water that will kill everything. Add copper to kill parasitic invertebrates, you can still get Bacterial Infections. Add Marycyn to a system to combat Bacterial Infections, and you can still get parasites or other disease. And so on and so forth. Even mixing them can be dangerous, so that's not an option.

A proper QT would be to keep the animal by itself in a single system with sterilized equipment and filters pre-established solely in that tank (not cultured from a display and added to the QT) and observe the animal for several weeks. If symptoms arise, then treat the animal (if possible) in a seperate Hospital/Treatment area (tank, bucket, etc. Depends on medication/treatment method).


__________________
Travis Stevens

Current Tank Info: Restarting 28g Bowfront
Travis L. Stevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:38 PM   #11
airinhere
Registered Member
 
airinhere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cayman Islands
Posts: 1,256
Dont forget the very common practice of keeping the salinity at lower levels in fish tanks to keep Ick from being able to survive.


__________________
Quit your job. Buy a ticket. Get a tan. Fall in love. Never return.

Current Tank Info: 20 gallon roundfront and 75 gallon
airinhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 01:40 PM   #12
ReefTECK
Registered Member
 
ReefTECK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 901
The store that I work for does not QT at all! It was a struggle just to get the owner to spring for UV sterilizers. Which is total bull****! They don't care, they're just there to make a buck, just like everybody else in this world. That's why it is imperative to QT all fish you bring home for at least two weeks.

Honestly though, aside from QT and treating illnesses as they arise, the way the LFS lucks out is by providing suitable water quality, space, behavioral compatibilities, and a steady diet for any affected fish. For which you can thank the one, maybe two competent peons that work in the LFS, because they're the only ones paying attention enough to help those fish make it.

I work with a whole bunch of freaking idiots, but I get by with what I have to use. Working in the LFS you always say to yourself, "man, if I could build a fish store," But the owner makes your experience working there for five years such absolute hell that you never want to work in a fish store again once you graduate college, and thus very few GOOD LFS stores are ever created!


__________________
2013 President of the Greater Iowa Reef Society
www.iowareefs.org

Current Tank Info: 120 Gallon Tank, 96 DIY LED's on 3 channels, 30gal sump/fuge, 4x2x0.5' & 40gal frag tank, SRO Ca rxr, GSA Kalk rxr, SRO 3000 skmr, Gen-X PCX40 Return, 2xMP40w's, 1xTunze 6101, 140lbs LR, SSB, SPS all the way!
ReefTECK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 03:02 PM   #13
Aquabucket
Premium Member
 
Aquabucket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Green Bay, Wi.
Posts: 4,455
The system we have set-up at the store I frag for has 6 Q tanks and a large LR and refugium based system set aside for fish and inverts. Newly acquired fish that appear healthy are placed in the LR refugium system which has pods, and algae for the new fish to feed on. This system gives the new fish a more natural environment which helps in getting them to feed on introduced foods.

Any unhealthy fish are transferred to the Q tanks where treatment can be undertaken if needed. If any fish gets sick in the LR system it is moved to one of the Q tanks.

The LR system is not ich free though because that would be nearly impossible.

The only way to be confident you are not spreading ich to your system is to QT your own fish.


__________________
"Just a drop in the bucket"
Aquabucket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 03:21 PM   #14
seapug
Registered Member
 
seapug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 4980 ft.
Posts: 7,954
Blog Entries: 1
All fine and dandy, but have you QT Police ever considered the expense that would be involved for a store to QT every single fish and coral the way you describe? They'd need a wharehouse of tanks each with their own filtration system that was scrubbed and sanitized every time a new fish came in as well as a full time in house fish doctor. If you think livestock is expensive now you'd have stroke if you saw what kind of markups that would create. A $50 fairy wrasse would be closer to $300 if it came from a store that did that.

They'd go out of business in 6 months because people would go down the street to the store that doesn't QT because the fish are 80% cheaper. Face it, stores will do what they can to deal with the most common and virulent diseases that cause problems but they can't be expected to QT like you describe. It's just not realistic.


__________________
insert clever saying here.

Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

Last edited by seapug; 01/09/2008 at 03:28 PM.
seapug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 03:28 PM   #15
TheMcs
Registered Member
 
TheMcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Broken Arrow, OK
Posts: 2,272
True QT for an LFS isn't feasible. You think prices are high in LFSs now, try them if a store has to pay to QT a fish for a month before it can be sold.
With that, the good stores are going to do everything they can to present healthy fish. It is a necessity to have a fish-only system. Moderate hypo-salinity. We ran 1.015 in the winter when turnover was higher, 1.018 in the summer when livestock hangs around a bit longer. Routine medication of the systems. Medicated feeding if necessary. Quarterly in rotation a segment is shut down and sterilized. Massive UV sterilizers running when medication wasn't present.
New shipments were acclimated and "QT'ed" in the back for 48 hours, mostly as a front-line defense to weed out obviously sick fish and those that wouldn't make it from shipping. We did place date of arrival on the ID/price sticker so people would know how long the fish had been in the store.

Regardless of what you do or don't know about anyone's water (LFS or otherwise), I would NEVER add it to your tank. Just not worth it. A fish will be fine out of the water for the time it takes to transfer from acclimation container to aquarium.

It's safe to say that nowhere along the line, from collection to your front door, has proper QT taken place. That's YOUR job.


__________________
Evaporation and top off don't count as water changes...

Current Tank Info: 185g Deep Sea display, 2x 40g frag tanks, 90g fuge, 60g sump (400+ gal system)
TheMcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 03:35 PM   #16
OnoIgotICH
Moved On
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 287
Most of the stores have ich, but their are some good ones. Ones that dont medicate, but sometimes have ich in their display systems. Their main system is ich free, mainly because they cherry pick ALL their fish if they are eating and so on. They are also pretty cheap. Stores like those are a rarity, but i think as long as the LFS's are cheaper than online, fish are eating, looking healthy. Then I'd rather go with LFS.

I dont see why most of reefers go online to buy. You dont get to see your fish, it might die in shipping etc etc.


OnoIgotICH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 04:17 PM   #17
spike78
Registered Member
 
spike78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 420
Quote:
Originally posted by OnoIgotICH

I don't see why most of reefers go online to buy. You don't get to see your fish, it might die in shipping etc etc. [/B]
The reason for me is simple... 15 day guarantee. The LFS in my area don't provide this. I'll buy fish from my LFS, but most expensive or rare livestock I buy online.


spike78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/09/2008, 07:23 PM   #18
OnoIgotICH
Moved On
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 287
Mine gives a 5 days.. all is fine though.


OnoIgotICH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/10/2008, 06:48 AM   #19
ReefTECK
Registered Member
 
ReefTECK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 901
Quote:
The reason for me is simple... 15 day guarantee. The LFS in my area don't provide this.
I think this is what makes QT a feasible, even profitable endeavor for LFS stores who do it right. You can add value to your fish, and quality to your store, as well as confidence that the guarantee you can now offer you clients isn't going to come back and bite you in the ***!

I mean, an observational QT would be favorable for any small business importing new exotics, and a sub sequential disease/treatment QT can be set up for fishes that are affected, much like what has been described above. The fish in the observational QT could still be offered for sale, minus the guarantee, and guarantees could be offered as an attachment of value for all of those past that phase, even if just a shot one.

Additionally I've seen places offer an extended guarantee for an additional 5-10% which most people will consider depending on the investment.

So to blasphemies the idea based on its economic feasibility is ridiculous. I know that the MAC certification hasn't really gained wind in America as much as they thought it would, but it's really the same principal, and we should value endeavors like this because they're better for us, it's better for the fish, and it can be better for the LFS too!

But I will have to agree, IT IS YOUR JOB AS A HOBBYIST TO QT. and really, nobody else's responsibility. If your tank gets nuked, it's on you buddy!


__________________
2013 President of the Greater Iowa Reef Society
www.iowareefs.org

Current Tank Info: 120 Gallon Tank, 96 DIY LED's on 3 channels, 30gal sump/fuge, 4x2x0.5' & 40gal frag tank, SRO Ca rxr, GSA Kalk rxr, SRO 3000 skmr, Gen-X PCX40 Return, 2xMP40w's, 1xTunze 6101, 140lbs LR, SSB, SPS all the way!
ReefTECK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01/10/2008, 08:37 AM   #20
matt_54351
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 32
my LFS is not so local, i could get to any of 3 quality shops in about 30 min, but drive an hour and 15min to get to the one i really love. They have 2 QT systems independent of their display, and if i get in the same day as a shipment they will let me pay for a fish and they will tag it for me but i can not physically have the fish for 1 week. They supposedly buy all their fish from a PhD Marine biologist that does his own qt for 1 week before my LFS. if it dies i get a full refund (has not happened yet, they hand pick all their fish). I have been adding their fish straight to my display for 9 months now with no problems. i have never seen ich in their tanks and rarely do i see aptasia, they stay on top of it very well. i have fish that after it gets packed up, i drive home (1 1/2 hrs after stopping for lunch), acclimate for 2 hrs, put in my tank and the fish will eat 15min later(not all fish but a more than 50%). VERY VERY health fish. i would recommend EVERYONE to them if you are anywhere within 2 hrs of the greater Tampa area. pm me if you want their info, i don't want to look too much like i am advertising or work for them.


matt_54351 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2021 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.