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Old 01/11/2008, 01:54 PM   #1
K' Family Reef
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considering heavy metal/toxin aborption - DSB best in display OR remote (RDSB) ???

here is a link to an article by dr ron shimek
talks about how we are adding excess heavy metals and toxins into our water by doing water changes (found in the salt) and how they accumulate and are absorbed by the live rock as well as dsb - which will build up over time and perhaps begin creating probs later on down road - UNLESS taken out or removed from system (that is the LR or dsb is physically removed)

this is not actually the focus of the article but only a sidebar of what its related to... mainly talking about nutrient export in our systems (on sidenote - discusses how xenia is a major exporter of nutrients in our systems)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-1...ture/index.php
excess toxic materials, particularly heavy metals and toxins


anyway...
we are considering options in an upgrade to our next system - which will be either 240 or 290 gal display

have had (((excellent luck))) using DSB
in both 125display and in the 50 display fuge - since the tank has been established nitrates have always been zero... and the tank is thriving.


one serious consideration
that is being taken about this new system is if it would be better to set up a RDSB vs using one in the main display - primarily so that over time the dsb can be switched out/replaced... this way also the main display detritius could then be gravel vacummed out.

setting up a rdsb then also using a dsb in a 75gal display fuge that will be part of the system... and keeping the dsb out of the main display

just being that its going to be a larger system
trying to really think this thru and for the long term...

any thoughts on this?

(thanks)

regards


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Old 01/11/2008, 02:16 PM   #2
Paul B
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I have no thoughts on the DSB because I have not ran one in many years but about the metals accumulating in the rock, I know Dr Shimek has been saying this for years and I just don't see it. It is true that metals may accumulate in rock but I doubt to the extent that they would harm anything with the exception of maybe copper. Not copper from the salt or pipes but from adding it to cure ich.
My rock has been in my system for over 30 years and I even had some metal poisonings from outside sources and the corals seem to be just fine.


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Old 01/11/2008, 03:41 PM   #3
K' Family Reef
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B
I have no thoughts on the DSB because I have not ran one in many years but about the metals accumulating in the rock, I know Dr Shimek has been saying this for years and I just don't see it. It is true that metals may accumulate in rock but I doubt to the extent that they would harm anything with the exception of maybe copper. Not copper from the salt or pipes but from adding it to cure ich.
My rock has been in my system for over 30 years and I even had some metal poisonings from outside sources and the corals seem to be just fine.

hi Paul B
thanks for the reply - its funny bec your system was the first thing i was thinking about when i read this article from shimek... hasnt yours been set up over 30years? - how much of the original liverock/gravel/etc do you still have in the system?

dr shimek recoms using oolitic or fine sand for dsb
mentioning that its nec for all the fauna that lives w/n it to be able to survive VS thicker grain size...

when set up our system
we used 'reef floor' which is larger then the recom oolitic sand... i actually chose to go off calfos recom from one of his books which contradicts shimek somewhat... and i feel like we got lucky bec since this system has been established nitrates have never been an issue and i would suppose the dsb has a lot to do w/ this!...

but i do respect reading others opinions/experiences etc
espec those who are doing THE reasearch into so many of the hobby related issues we deal with... and i know i have learned a lot from reading shimeks articles/books


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Old 01/11/2008, 04:57 PM   #4
LobsterOfJustice
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There is no way you are accumulating toxins by doing water changes. Just think about it... You are taking just as much water out as you are putting in. Using tap water for top off is a different story though. Also, even if it gets stored in the rock, that's good because it isn't in you water. But it doesn't get stored in your rock anyway. How would it? Diffusion will make sure the concentrations are equal. And even if it did build up in the rock, and even if the rock did start to leach it out, it wouldn't all just explode out at once for no reason. If you keep up regular water changes they will remove everything.

I really wonder where these experts get this stuff.

All that said, I vote for the rdsb, just so if you ever have to remove it for any reason, you don't have to tear the tank apart.


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Old 01/11/2008, 06:31 PM   #5
Paul B
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Warren, Shimek and I got into salt the same year (we are also the same age) but we disagree on many things.
He has the credentials so I won't say anything negative about him.
My gravel has been in my tank for about 40 years. My tank was first fresh water then I changed the gravel (not the water) and added salt and it became brackish. There was no salt water fish for sale in the sixtees. Then in about 1971 I added more salt and salt water fish became available in NYC.
It has been a reef since anemones became available in about 78or 85.
Lobster, the only thing I can say is that I hate to do water changes because I now have no algae but when I change water I know I will get it. I usually don't have algae because I have a trough where I grow it and remove it along with the nitrates and phosphates. When I do a change, even though I use RO/DI I always cause a small algae bloom. This will not happen in a newer tank but a very old tank accumulates a lot of detritus and God knows what else so whatever the algae needs to grow I add with water changes.
I am not saying, don't change the water. This is temporary and will only be a problem in a very old tank.


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Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971
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Old 01/12/2008, 11:44 PM   #6
K' Family Reef
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Quote:
Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
There is no way you are accumulating toxins by doing water changes. Just think about it... You are taking just as much water out as you are putting in. Using tap water for top off is a different story though. Also, even if it gets stored in the rock, that's good because it isn't in you water. But it doesn't get stored in your rock anyway. How would it? Diffusion will make sure the concentrations are equal. And even if it did build up in the rock, and even if the rock did start to leach it out, it wouldn't all just explode out at once for no reason. If you keep up regular water changes they will remove everything.

I really wonder where these experts get this stuff.

All that said, I vote for the rdsb, just so if you ever have to remove it for any reason, you don't have to tear the tank apart.
Lobster
have read in various places (rc?) that salt mixes do contain heavy metals/toxins... wasnt just this article by dr shimek... as far as getting stored in the rock ??? dont know - perhaps the same way that they say phosphates can get built up in the live rock...

however valid these points were re heavy metals
still seems like good practice to do a rdsb thus allowing one more options when it comes to maintanance/replacement...

believe we will do a rdsb on this system
seems the most practical use of the sand bed - espec in a larger system... it becomes a matter of finding the space - we have a room that we are building in the garage but havent decided whether or not to build a fish room into it -

regards


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Old 01/12/2008, 11:55 PM   #7
K' Family Reef
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B
Warren, Shimek and I got into salt the same year (we are also the same age) but we disagree on many things.
He has the credentials so I won't say anything negative about him.
My gravel has been in my tank for about 40 years. My tank was first fresh water then I changed the gravel (not the water) and added salt and it became brackish. There was no salt water fish for sale in the sixtees. Then in about 1971 I added more salt and salt water fish became available in NYC.
It has been a reef since anemones became available in about 78or 85.
Lobster, the only thing I can say is that I hate to do water changes because I now have no algae but when I change water I know I will get it. I usually don't have algae because I have a trough where I grow it and remove it along with the nitrates and phosphates. When I do a change, even though I use RO/DI I always cause a small algae bloom. This will not happen in a newer tank but a very old tank accumulates a lot of detritus and God knows what else so whatever the algae needs to grow I add with water changes.
I am not saying, don't change the water. This is temporary and will only be a problem in a very old tank.

Paul
right now i am undecided as to best salt to use - have used oceanic then tropic marin pro - which dont know that i could see enough/any? improvement to justify paying that kind of money again for it... cant find the link right now but there is a guy or company selling all the compounds in mixes to make ones own salt - mix the calcium separate from everything else - supposed to be the closest thing to real sea water etc etc etc - havent tried it but am interested in learning more about it before i purchase salt again (by mixing the salt mixture yourself supposedly avoid all the additives/heavy metals that are in the premade salt mixes avail to hobbiest)

regards


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Old 01/13/2008, 04:48 AM   #8
Paul B
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I use mostly Instant Ocean when I am not collecting NSW. Don't find any problems after many years.
Paul


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I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead.

Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971
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Old 01/13/2008, 05:58 AM   #9
conorwynne
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Has anyone ever drilled into LR and taken a sample, then lab analysis performed to determine this? Or is it just a theory.

Now I'm off to read that article before taking sides...
p.s.: Paul, any updates on your thread, hows the coral chemical warfare going?

regards
Conor.


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Old 01/13/2008, 09:47 AM   #10
Paul B
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Conor, there actually has been studies done on core samples of live rock but it was long ago and I don't remember exactly what was found but it was more about the bacterial content than metal accumulation.
As for my tank, It is a conglamoration of gobies now with a few others mixed in. I am in a breeding mode now but I am also doing some experimenting with water treatment.
I need some time to try to raise some of the spawn from bangai cardinals then I will re-aquascape and change things around.
The tank seems very healthy which is a good thing but it causes problems. When most of the fish are in breeding condition they tend to not get along with fish they have been living with for years. It brings out the worst in fish but it also brings out the best colors and vitality. I keep a large stock of live blackworms which I fortify every day and I am still hatching brine shrimp every day. You need to do this if you want to breed the smaller gobies and bleenies.
Take care.
Paul


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I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead.

Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971
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Old 01/14/2008, 09:00 AM   #11
conorwynne
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RE: bacterial samples, yes I do remember reading something about that on RC some time ago, I think it would be a very good idea -- and easier -- to test for chemicals (easier to test leaching back into water).

I had a read of the article last night, yer man knows his stuff all right!

Some of it went over my head I must admit. I ended up having to skip some bits :-)

It woudl be really interesting to get some core samples tested in a lab, who on RC can do this? It's way beyond me.

Pics and more info on yer thread boyo! Chat ya there.

regards
Conor.


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Current Tank Info: New tank in progress....
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